For The Indies / Our Scarlet customers...

[Curran Giddens]

Thanks Jarred. I have a Scarlet Dragon for my own personal camera. It is assuring to know that there will still be lower priced options in the future for those of us who can't afford to jump into the Weapon options available at this time. If it was just me you know I would have jumped all-in for the 8K VV sensor within a minute it it going live in the store. But now I have a family to think about and couldn't justify the cost / benefit. My only suggestion is to offer a Brain-only option with no accessory credit, and then lower the price as much as you can. I know you want everyone to have the new accessories, and I would love to have them, but I don't need $10k worth of accessories to get started with Weapon. I'm already using mini-mags. I would prefer to buy just the accessories I want, when I want them. Besides, I know how your package deals usually work on in-stock accessories... it is just full retail price when you add it up. Haha. But I love you guys. I'm not going anywhere.

 

[Nick Pasquariello]

I'm glad for this, but also feel a little bit squeezed. I haven't upgraded my Scarlet to Dragon, or Epic, and don't know how much I should try to squeeze my bank account to do so before the upgrade path shuts down this summer. Without knowing what the future holds for this line (That is, the Scarlet equivalent of Weapon), I'm in a little bit of a bind. Do I kill myself to upgrade now on faith that I'll want the next upgrade too?

I'm not asking for a price cut, or any change of plans. Just wanted to point out that it's a rough decision to make when we specifically lack some information.

 

[Bill Stengel]

Thanks for addressing this, Jarred.
The whaaambulance showed up and helped me down off of my tantrum soapbox about the SCARLET-EPIC upgrade window. I'm now looking at it as a motivator to crank out the work to make it happen.

 

[Phil Holland]

I'm glad for this, but also feel a little bit squeezed. I haven't upgraded my Scarlet to Dragon, or Epic, and don't know how much I should try to squeeze my bank account to do so before the upgrade path shuts down this summer. Without knowing what the future holds for this line (That is, the Scarlet equivalent of Weapon), I'm in a little bit of a bind. Do I kill myself to upgrade now on faith that I'll want the next upgrade too?

I'm not asking for a price cut, or any change of plans. Just wanted to point out that it's a rough decision to make when we specifically lack some information.

Tough call as nobody can make that decision for you. If you want to stay on the general upgrade path you will need to upgrade from Mysterium-X to Dragon. Honestly, considering that you can for the next couple months I would. There is no more upgrade path for Mysterium-X after the program ends this summer. You will need to have that Dragon sensor at a minimum to continue forward.

Scarlet Dragon will have an upgrade path in the future, so that's what can comfort you in that direction. I don't know if there will be a Scarlet-type "equivalent" to Weapon as Weapon is all about powerful processing and feature set and Scarlet is the entry level body.

Don't feel squeezed. RED's laid out what the Weapon upgrade is and the various credits and trade-in values are. If the camera specs make sense for your work than you can have the Dragon sensor in the top of the line body.

The thing is that the next sensor technology is likely 1-3 years away. I'm guessing closer to 2-3 years actually. RED won't be divulging anything about a new sensor and what exactly those plans are now because A. it's too early, B. the competition would have a real leg up, C. they themselves might not fully know all the details.

 

[Maik Müller]

I feel like alot of our Scarlet customers and the indie shooters out there are having some separation anxiety looking at the price point of Weapon and a few people are concerned we have forgotten about the "little guys".

Dont worry we are not abandoning the "lower" end and just focusing on the super high end.

Truth be told the Scarlet Dragon is anything but low end... It is actually a better camera than almost every high end camera out there if you actually compare the specs. And there is definitely a future for Scarlet Dragon... you just don't know about it yet and it is not anywhere near.

It's a bit sad that you felt enough pressure to make a clarification about this topic - this alone should tell us a few things.

Thank you!

 

[Maik Müller]

I'm not clear about what it tells you or why. Perhaps you are not familiar with the way this came into being?

To start with: Jarred getting a bit emotional and feeling the need to address the Scarlet-customers, assure them about a bright future and trying to explain (again) what Weapons is (and what its not), why it is pricier... This alone is so contrary to all those assumptions about RED forgetting their "low end"-sector and indies.

But you are right, i didn't read the post to which Jarred replied.

 

[Scott Crawley]

To start with: Jarred getting a bit emotional and feeling the need to address the Scarlet-customers, assure them about a bright future and trying to explain (again) what Weapons is (and what its not), why it is pricier... This alone is so contrary to all those assumptions about RED forgetting their "low end"-sector and indies.

But you are right, i didn't read the post to which Jarred replied.

I have read many postings of Epic and Scarlet users alike who felt that the writing was on the wall and Epic/Scarlet were EOL, on their way out, and since they could not afford to keep up with $50k that they were going to bail on Red all together. They felt unsupported, their gear rapidly devaluing and that Red was evolving beyond them.

You may see no validity in it, but Jarred apparently felt it was important enough to put it to rest. Many of us are appreciative that he did. So what does that tell you about us? I still don't get it.

 

[Maik Müller]

I have read many postings of Epic and Scarlet users alike who felt that the writing was on the wall and Epic/Scarlet were EOL, on their way out, and since they could not afford to keep up with $50k that they were going to bail on Red all together. They felt unsupported, their gear rapidly devaluing and that Red was evolving beyond them.

You may see no validity in it, but Jarred apparently felt it was important enough to put it to rest. Many of us are appreciative that he did. So what does that tell you about us? I still don't get it.

I saw the same postings and i appreciate what Jarred did. It was the right step and hopefully helps people to calm down a bit.

What i think is, that there were some emotional reactions from the user-base, partly understandable, but mostly just filled with assumptions and "reading between the lines". History should tell us enough about RED to have more faith. In fact, there was no REAL reason to be disappointed or even start thinking about RED dropping the indie-market. If you had followed Jarred's posts in the past, everyone should know that RED still loves Scarlet and doesn't want to get rid of the user-base.

Then there was the hint about the Dragon-upgrade. Do you really think Jarred personally would have mislead Scarlet-owners into a upgrade to a EOL-camera without telling us it will be the final incarnation? He would have communicated it differently.

So i feel sorry for Jarred and RED, because i think this sort of feedback might have been a bad surprise for them.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

So i feel sorry for Jarred and RED, because i think this sort of feedback might have been a bad surprise for them.

Agreed. I'm sure they would have loved it if the reaction had been 100% positive, with raving notes from all. Same way any of us would want to happen for any of our products that we create.

I think its important for us all to reiterate every so often that RED truly has done an amazing job here. Celebration is as important as Critique. I hope Jarred and co are ready for our heightened expectations of them moving forward. A lot of this could have been avoided with better expectation management, but when you have so many moving parts, and I'm sure a pretty slim crew handling all of this kind of work at RED, its a lot to ask for.

No harm, no foul as someone said. I think we can move on now and get to some interesting places.

One thing I'll say is this - I was always in favor of dropping the upgrade program post RED ONE. But now, I think RED should just embrace the darn thing and be the BEST AT IT! That may mean not having it as a favor they do for their customer base, but as a FEATURE of the RED PLATFORM.

Making that pivot will help RED approach the upgrade program(s) in ways that they currently don't consider.

 

[Sergio Perez]

Great post Jarred.

You know, and i say this from a personal perspective, I live on the other side of the world. Over here (and neighbouring regions), its incredible to see the impact RED had on the film industry- both in the independent and on the "Big Budget" productions. What i find even more interesting is, all this started from this unique spirit of Red- about communication. through communication and word of mouth, this whole "movement" was created.

I know for a fact (hear it often) many people, from the High End, Big Production world, don't like REDUSER. They joke about it, joke about it being a place of apologists, or "propaganda". I know where Reduser comes from - pointing at you Jarred- and one cannot, I think disassociate what Red cameras currently are, what the product is without tying it also to the genius of having this communication tool with costumers. This I say, obviously without taking anything from the Geniuses that engineer these cameras.

Right now there are, over the World, users , some premium, High End ones, who Beta test your equipment and give you feedback on the field in various levels of production. This is probably what the competition also does. However, over here, you're listening to the voice of those that are normally not heard. Here, a potential costumer, a young independent filmmaker, a creative artist, an experienced DOP can come to understand, share, question what Red is all about- from anywhere in the world. Reduser, to me, is an integral part to the essence of what RED DIGITAL CINEMA is. A Red camera, a tool of communication, developed through communication.

The overwhelming Response you guys and girls at Red received from the launch of the Weapon reflects the passion, commitment as well as the concerns of all those that are in the RED train, or wanting to join. Those that come here, those that spend time reading posts on an online forum are also out there, using Red cameras with passion, developing unique, spectacular, relevant, and important content. By saying you are listening and committed to this user base- which in its big majority is consisting of the Independents (certainly PJ, James Cameron, Dickens, the other "Top men and women" don't post here, they call you guys, or Arri, or Sony!) is another vote of confidence for us to upgrade.

Having said all this, as an Epic Dragon owner and "Independent", I would like to say that you confirming the Magnesium Body can be upgraded to Vista Vision- by upgrading internals- was the last needed piece of the puzzle to decide on upgrading. I think this is what most of us needed to know. We didn't want our Magnesium brains to not be able to upgrade to 8K CF Weapon Dragon integrals.

We are all in this together. May they be filmmakers who are working in the next Blockbuster , the next "Memento", the next Sundance sensation, to the ones doing cake movies, obscure art films or Regional commercials. All RED Camera users are committed and passionate to produce the best content possible.

Where else do you see users giving names to their cameras? Here's the first ever work I did with the EPIC X Lilau (now Dragon). No pay. Just a test/ short, a tribute and above all the commitment of what I wanted to do with it.

https://vimeo.com/38020250

That was in 2012. Now, this camera has produced many short films, TV Commercials, and has helped to put one very very important event for me on the big motorsport stage, that it truly deserved:

https://vimeo.com/112166475

The way I express myself is directly connected to the "brush" I use and the "colours" and "canvas" it allows me to explore. It gives me the freedom to use, with less and less limitations, my creativity. I don't have much return of investment through what I do. Its hard to explain, but I sincerely hope to be able to continue this unique partnership, as a costumer, as a Reduser, with these boundaries pushing geniuses at RED.

Keep rocking!

 

[Wim Verbeek]

Love this post Jarred!

- Following RED since 2006
- Rented RedOne and didn't ever want to shoot with another camera. R3d RedCode is awesome!
- Bought Scarlet-X in 2012, perfect for my corporate needs.
- Waiting for my Dragon upgrade just now. Couldn't be happier :laugh:
- RED changed my professional life.
- Thanks for this.

 

[Tehben Dean]

I'm glad for this, but also feel a little bit squeezed. I haven't upgraded my Scarlet to Dragon, or Epic, and don't know how much I should try to squeeze my bank account to do so before the upgrade path shuts down this summer. Without knowing what the future holds for this line (That is, the Scarlet equivalent of Weapon), I'm in a little bit of a bind. Do I kill myself to upgrade now on faith that I'll want the next upgrade too?

I'm not asking for a price cut, or any change of plans. Just wanted to point out that it's a rough decision to make when we specifically lack some information.

Don't' sell any organs to do the upgrade. In a few years when you need a new camera you can buy a new camera. Spending $12k to stay in the upgrade path so you can spend another $12k+ to get the next upgrade is no different then waiting and spending the $24k+ later to buy a new/er camera.

If your Scarlet MX is working for you now then keep shooting with it. It's not like it's gotten any worse then it was yesterday, It's still a great camera.

 

[Brian Boyer]

This obviously does not mean that the next sensor will fit in an Epic or Scarlet body though like some people are implying... that is taking the question and answer out of context, and the electronics obviously would need to be upgraded for a new sensor, but there will be an upgrade path regardless, no matter where you are in the Dragon family. Considering that most likely that will be in the Weapon form factor, it obviously will be most affordable to be on Weapon when that time comes.

Okay, I did miss this post. I'll take the hit for misunderstanding what Jarred said but, in all fairness, his first answer was not nearly this clear.

If the answer to "Will Scarlet Dragon be eligible for a sensor upgrade in one way or another?" is "Yes, through Weapon.", then it was a strange question (IMO) because I can upgrade to Weapon from Scarlet Dragon today. There's no reason to think that wouldn't be true when a new sensor is available.

I guess I didn't think the question was asked in the spirit of getting an answer the asker already presumably knew.

I'm not usually one to jump to conclusions on this forum but there was room for interpretation based on the somewhat odd way Jarred phrased the answer to an odd (IMO) question. Come to think of it, his first post in this thread is worded kinda weird, given the quote above.

Maybe it would help to add this info to the first post, lest people still get the wrong idea. Without it, I can see people assuming "a future for Scarlet Dragon" means a new sensor, when it may just mean unlocked or enhanced features or something else entirely.

 

[Scott Crawley]

I saw the same postings and i appreciate what Jarred did. It was the right step and hopefully helps people to calm down a bit.

What i think is, that there were some emotional reactions from the user-base, partly understandable, but mostly just filled with assumptions and "reading between the lines". History should tell us enough about RED to have more faith. In fact, there was no REAL reason to be disappointed or even start thinking about RED dropping the indie-market. If you had followed Jarred's posts in the past, everyone should know that RED still loves Scarlet and doesn't want to get rid of the user-base.

Then there was the hint about the Dragon-upgrade. Do you really think Jarred personally would have mislead Scarlet-owners into a upgrade to a EOL-camera without telling us it will be the final incarnation? He would have communicated it differently.

So i feel sorry for Jarred and RED, because i think this sort of feedback might have been a bad surprise for them.

Ah, I see. I think it will play out as just a little bump in the road... A potential problem averted. But it seems to be resonating. This really was an important statement on Jarred's part I think.

Do I think Jarred intentionally mislead anyone? Not at all. In fact these ideas I was trying to help give voice to were not my own for the most part. Hoarding MX parts though... That cheeky bit was mine. ;-)

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

If it was actually $12k in cash I would be less contemplative. But there would still be some pretty big unknowns. I would lose my sidehandle which never leaves my camera and instead have the sidekick which I get a lot of people want and a lot of people hate the Sidehandle, but I've always been a fan. And if I move to XL without a side handle I'll only have 90 minutes of power without a REDVolt to failover to or the option of shooting for 30 minutes in an extremely lightweight handheld configuration. I love the ports all on the right with the Base Expander... but I'm already getting really excited about tethering which I would lose. I love the toolless attachment of the 7" but when I put it on a Noga it now requires a large bulk adapter. The image quality will be nearly identical. It looks like compression can be reduced by 10%. So ultimately I would say Epic vs Weapon for my configuration is kind of 1 step forward one step back on form factor when I look at it really closely. To me it feels more like a crossgrade than an upgrade. It would be like moving from FCP-7 to FCP-X when FCP-X was launched. But it's reassuring to hear that the DSMC Epic/Scarlet customers aren't going to be treated like FCP-7 customers. I look forward to hearing about what those options will be going forward for Epic Dragon owners.

I agree with a lot of this actually.

If the upgrade was really only $12K i'd probably make the jump. I think the difficult part for me is going to be having to get new media, make a decision on whether to stick with V-Mount or make the switch to XL's.

Being completely honest the RV XL's make ALOT of sense for the type of work I do and the size, but that elevates the cost along with media (keeping in mind I don't really know the overall trade in program for SSD's.

I'm also with Gavin on the side handle. I love it and feel like the majority of those I talked to at NAB love it.

It's exciting that the support for the current DSMC platform is still in place.

Curious how possible it is to get an idea of what the future might look like for the MG body as far as upgrades might look like? I'm aware of the horsepower in the Carbon fiber separating it from the pack entirely. But is there some possibility the MG sees an 8K type upgrade without having to jump into the Carbon Fiber Weapon? Obviously with less power in terms of frame rates to protect the Carbon Fiber model, this could also potentially keep the cost a bit lower in terms of the sensor upgrade. Or is that a see with time kind of scenario?

 

[Stacey Spears]

I'm also with Gavin on the side handle. I love it and feel like the majority of those I talked to at NAB love it.

Send your feedback to Element Technica ASAP. I spoke to them about it at NAB. They said it would have a record start /stop button. Let them know what features you use on the current side handle. e.g. I mentioned the rocker switch for motion mound ND, at least three buttons (edge focus, 1:1 and exposure for me) The dpad to navigate menus when not using a touch screen, such as only using an EVF.

But is there some possibility the MG sees an 8K type upgrade without having to jump into the Carbon Fiber Weapon? Obviously with less power in terms of frame rates to protect the Carbon Fiber model, this could also potentially keep the cost a bit lower in terms of the sensor upgrade.

Jarred posted that buying CF w/ 8k now will be cheaper than upgrading MG to 8k later. We know sensor goes from $10k to $20k shortly. So It may cost at least $20k. Then if CF is $15k more than MG, for the required horse power, then maybe MG 6k to MG 8k is going to cost at least $35k. I am, of course, pulling that number out of my ass.

When the 8K dragon sensor is ready, you will be able to keep the MG body and just upgrade the Boards and the Sensor to get the full 8K Carbon performance. It will cost more of course than going straight to 8K Carbon right now, but the performance will be the same and 6K and 8K will be the distinction, not just the material.

 

[Scott Crawley]

I mentioned the rocker switch for motion mound ND, at least three buttons (edge focus, 1:1 and exposure for me)

Exactly! But I use the rocker for iris instead (No MM here.). I also like toggle focus modes on a button and assign A&B focus points each to a button.

Love that side handle for bobble free quick adjustments.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

Send your feedback to Element Technica ASAP. I spoke to them about it at NAB. They said it would have a record start /stop button. Let them know what features you use on the current side handle. e.g. I mentioned the rocker switch for motion mound ND, at least three buttons (edge focus, 1:1 and exposure for me) The dpad to navigate menus when not using a touch screen, such as only using an EVF.


I recall Jarred posting that buying CF w/ 8k now will be cheaper than upgrading MG to 8k later. We know sensor goes from 10k to 20k shortly. So It will cost at least 20k. Then if CF is $15k more than MG, for the required horse power, then maybe MG to CF 8k is going to cost $35k. I am, of course, pulling that out of my ass.

Stacey, Will do.

Currently there are to many buttons, and often have to turn off quite a few of them. But keeping the RV would be awesome.

And thanks for the answer on the upgrade. Curious if there might be a potentially cheaper option? Maybe less frame rates etc. If not thats totally understandable, maybe in the next go around once things move forward costs will come down a bit.

Edit: just saw Stacey's updated post, thanks for finding that Stacey!

 

[Stacey Spears]

I guess, more of what i'm asking is if there might be a cheaper upgrade option to keep the MG body instead of having to go all in on the CF Camera.... but there will be a point when 8K is within reach for all of us

If anyone knows, that would be RED. In another post, Jarred mentioned that the cost difference between CF and MG was less about material and more about processing power.

In time, yields go up and cost goes down. How much time and cost is an unknown. By the time the yields are great, they could be on the next gen sensor, where yields are poor again. Again, just a guess. No doubt that when the next gen sensor is announced, someone will have just upgraded to the current gen 8k sensor and will be upset because they were not told that the next gen sensor was coming. 8k upgrades starting at the end of the year put them close to the next NAB.

 

[Jesse Conti]

The Scarlet-D is a powerful "weapon" in itself, that is a step up from an Epic MX in many ways and it will have its day. I can't wait to hear what's in store down the road. Indie guys should rejoice in the fact that we have a fantastic tool at an affordable price with options.