For The Indies / Our Scarlet customers...

[Akin A]

Moreover, I didn't fully realize how limited the SCARLET was compared to EPIC when it comes to resolution and REDCODE options. Of course I knew that I was downgrading from 6K 24fps to 5K 24fps, but I didn't realize I was losing the half-K resolution settings, nor did I realize just how quickly one had to jump to high compression to shoot higher frame rates. And because the SCARLET-X DRAGON is actually louder that the EPIC-M DRAGON, I'm really looking at upgrading it sonner rather than later. Unfortunately, because of its low residual value (understandable because it's starting from a lower cost basis) and because of the much higher cost base of WEAPON, the trade from SCARLET-X to WEAPON is such that I'm inclined to keep the SCARLET-X as a somewhat badly behaved, but nevertheless potent B-camera for those times when I can work around its limitations.

Michael, I'm interested in knowing more about your experience using Epic Dragon vs Scarlet Dragon. I'm leaning towards upgrading to Epic Dragon. Do you actually use the half Ks that often? I've seen the compression wedge thread, but do you see a noticeable jump in real world image quality of 6K 24fps vs 5K 24fps 7:1 downscaled to 4K? I'm sure the frame rate improvements are obvious, based on my Scarlet Dragon HFR tests. Any other thoughts?

 

[Elsie N]

Shoot. Someone just pointed out to me that Weapon CF is really the Dragon upgrade path and that the magnesium has lesser specs. For me to upgrade to the Weapon CF would take $40k after tradein values. I think what I need to do is get another year or so use out of my Dragon then hope that later Red does an upgrade path from EpicX Dragon straight to the next gen sensor.

Sounds like something that could happen, for both Scarlet and Epic Dragons, since the form factor of those two cameras is larger than the Weapon form factor... meaning the internals should surely fit. That would in essence be the less-expensive Aluminum Body upgrade some were wishing for Weapon.

Of course that would come with the penalty of time to use the 8k if that is the next sensor being referred to, as I'm sure it would be well after the first ones were introduced and had a good amount of time in the field. Also it would mean not having the ease-of-use that the Weapon suggests.

I think once the dust settles from NAB and RED has a sense of what the numbers are for cash inflow and cost outlays, they can decide how to move forward in respect to new products and customer-loyalty benefits for those who could either not afford or justify the current product upgrade.

 

[Scott Crawley]

As I said, not a bad idea for those who need a nanny banker...

Yeah, I was wondering how a Red Savings account would take someone who has been unable to save money and make them more successful at it and what would cause someone to think that such a thing would be of benefit.

How 'bout a generous upgrade plan? I send them all of my fives and they would use some Graeme magic to upgrade each of them to a ten dollar bill! That would be awesome!

Of course someone would complain about the graphics on the ten and insist upon twenties instead...

And that is the way they should have done it in the first place anyway, because everyone knows that twenties are so much better than tens. What were they thinking? They must have been tryin' to scam us.

Come to think about it I see no technical reasons why Red couldn't squeeze another five out of those bills... $25's!! They could make $25's! Give me a twenty-five dollar bill for every five I deposit, or I won't use their bank. Their inks suck anyway.

and if I want to make origami swans with them I have to fold it and shit.

I heard they were going to make them coins and call them Red Rounds too, the juvenile pricks. I don't want to pay with ammo. Liberals will laugh at me and the fuckin idiot gropers at the TSA will tase me when I try to buy an airline ticket and ammo falls out of my pocket. I don't need that shit.

And no, it doesn't matter that I can buy the Red Auto Loader Personal Mint and print my own money for pennies on the dollar. After I buy the fucker I'll be fresh out of pennies.

I'll buy the competitors $2 bill instead. I don't care if they cost $35. Fuck 'em

 

[Elsie N]

...

How 'bout a generous upgrade plan? I send them all of my fives and they would use some Graeme magic to upgrade each of them to a ten dollar bill! That would be awesome!

....

I have no doubt he could do it... if he just had the time. '-)

 

[Les Hillis]

... I'm leaning towards upgrading to Epic Dragon... I've seen the compression wedge thread, but do you see a noticeable jump in real world image quality of 6K 24fps vs 5K 24fps 7:1 downscaled to 4K?...

Hi Akin, fortunately the image-quality differences are something you can test and see for yourself using your Scarlet Dragon.

If you shoot at 4fps you can directly compare the image quality of the 5K and 6K resolutions at RC2:1 to RC8:1(and higher).

Obviously, at 4fps whatever you shoot will be sped up and you'll also have to physically move closer or further away from your subject in order to re-frame it so it looks the same when changing between 5K and 6K, but you should still be able to see what the extra 1K of resolution and lower RC compression will get you in real-world terms.

Some things to look out for in particular would be the differences between 6K@RC4:1(Epic-D 24fps max.), 5K@RC3:1(Epic-D 24fps max.) and 5K@RC8:1(Scarlet-D 24fps max.), as these are the highest quality full-sensor settings available when using the 512GB Mini-Mags to record at 24fps.

 

[Mark T Workman]

So it looks like I have until midnight tonight, maybe tomorrow, before the NAB special options turn into a pumpkin. Where to begin...

I have two DRAGONs, an EPIC-M and a SCARLET-X. My relationships with both cameras have been mixed. I was hoping that WEAPON would give me an upgrade path to leave behind what I don't like about the current cameras and maybe get even happier about what I already do like. When I read the WEAPON specs and features, I was excited, until I saw the pricing, which I simply could not wrap my mind around (because I was expecting WEAPON to be a replacing body upgrade, not an entirely new product category). What RED has (finally) made clear is that WEAPON will co-exist with EPIC DRAGON, not replace it. But it leaves me feeling caught in the middle:

My current DRAGONs:

* Are louder than they should be for a recording studio environment. I would pay a few thousand dollars each to drop their fan noise by 6dB-10dB
* The PRO IO module is even worse--half the time I have to take it off because it is too loud. (The ability to resample 96K AES -> 48K is a nice feature, however)
* Don't play well with my Fujinon cabrio lenses (they neither have the power to zoom nor the power to read metadata)
* Will record HDMI or SDI out to blackmagic boxes, so I can capture 2K pro-res when needed (albeit without LUTs)
* Don't have an upgrade path to VV (which means my dreams end at 6K)

Moreover, I didn't fully realize how limited the SCARLET was compared to EPIC when it comes to resolution and REDCODE options. Of course I knew that I was downgrading from 6K 24fps to 5K 24fps, but I didn't realize I was losing the half-K resolution settings, nor did I realize just how quickly one had to jump to high compression to shoot higher frame rates. And because the SCARLET-X DRAGON is actually louder that the EPIC-M DRAGON, I'm really looking at upgrading it sonner rather than later. Unfortunately, because of its low residual value (understandable because it's starting from a lower cost basis) and because of the much higher cost base of WEAPON, the trade from SCARLET-X to WEAPON is such that I'm inclined to keep the SCARLET-X as a somewhat badly behaved, but nevertheless potent B-camera for those times when I can work around its limitations.

So what of the EPIC-M? With all the confusion about the discounts, rebates, prices, etc., all the focus shifted from "What can the Weapon do?" to "what's the cost?" Even by the end of NAB, I was very unclear on whether the WEAPON would deliver $17,000 worth of upgrade value to me. (Or $30,000 plus if looking at the *real* path to the future, WEAPON CF.) And here's where my dilemma really comes into focus: if I were going to spend $17K to make the body fit my work environment better, it would have to be the SCARLET-X not the EPIC-M that I'd be upgrading. And if I were to splurge and spend $30K on an upgrade, it would be to fully bring the SCARLET up to scratch. Which is all to say that for me, WEAPON looks like a bridge too far.

RED is making the pivot from being a disruptor to being a leader. A disruptor gives you 4x the performance for 1/10th the cost. A leader gives to 2x the performance of anybody else, but if you have to ask, you can't afford it.

Michael, did you ever own the Scarlet MX and so have basis to compare it with Scarlet Dragon?

 

[Scott Crawley]

I have no doubt he could do it... if he just had the time. '-)

Graeme magic does make money, doesn't it? ;-)

 

[Akin A]

Hi Akin, fortunately the image-quality differences are something you can test and see for yourself using your Scarlet Dragon.

lol, thanks Les. Sometimes I forget that 6K low compression is even on Scarlet Dragon because I haven't gone that low in fps. Gonna try that to compare still frames.
I'm still curious about noticing it in a real shooting situation with motion in frame at 24fps though.

 

[Mike Garrick]

Whilst not 24 fps you can shoot 12 Fps @ both 5K & 6K @ the same compression and compare.

P.s. LOL. @ Scott ......seems highly logical to me .

 

[Michael Tiemann]

Michael, did you ever own the Scarlet MX and so have basis to compare it with Scarlet Dragon?

Nope. I went straight to DRAGON, and got my battle scars from that.

 

[Michael Tiemann]

Michael, I'm interested in knowing more about your experience using Epic Dragon vs Scarlet Dragon. I'm leaning towards upgrading to Epic Dragon. Do you actually use the half Ks that often? I've seen the compression wedge thread, but do you see a noticeable jump in real world image quality of 6K 24fps vs 5K 24fps 7:1 downscaled to 4K? I'm sure the frame rate improvements are obvious, based on my Scarlet Dragon HFR tests. Any other thoughts?

I've decided that REDCODE 8:1 at 5K is not truly my rate-limiting step, so I don't stress about it. That said, it's a tight performance box, and if/when I want to stretch (lower compression, higher framerate, larger sensor area, etc)., I know I'm in a very tight box. EPIC has brainpower for days. The half-Ks can be helpful when stretching HFR limits w/o compromising pixels. There's a world of difference between 4K and 3K, and SCARLET offers nothing in between.

Honestly, SCARLET DRAGON is a fine camera, and reflects a sensible balance of cost/performance compromise. If you really need EPIC DRAGON, get EPIC DRAGON. Having an EPIC DRAGON, I can afford to spend less on a second camera that does very well what a second camera should do very well.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Jarred, this is perfectly reasonable.

I find it odd how some people working in Low Budget Land feel offended by the fact that some things are too expensive for them. Where did the idea come from that you must have access to anything you want instantly, on day one of your career? How does that even make sense? Where is it written that those later on in their career do not have the right to better things on set than they do, things which as you explain are more expensive for really good reason? Do they feel that truly high end tools should no longer exist, lest these higher priced items offend their random sense of entitlement, and vaguely Marxist notion that everyone should be using the same things to shoot films?

Instead, they should be excited about later climbing ranks, and having access to even better tools later on as part of the pay off of that career climb. One more thing to look forward to.

In the meanwhile, anyone who claims they can't shoot whatever it is they want with any Red camera, past or present, really should look at their shooting skills, not blame Red.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Jarred, this is perfectly reasonable.

I find it odd how some people working in Low Budget Land feel offended by the fact that some things are too expensive for them. Where did the idea come from that you must have access to anything you want instantly, on day one of your career? How does that even make sense? Where is it written that those later on in their career do not have the right to better things on set than they do, things which as you explain are more expensive for really good reason? Do they feel that truly high end tools should no longer exist, lest these higher priced items offend their random sense of entitlement, and vaguely Marxist notion that everyone should be using the same things to shoot films?

Instead, they should be excited about later climbing ranks, and having access to even better tools later on as part of the pay off of that career climb. One more thing to look forward to.

In the meanwhile, anyone who claims they can't shoot whatever it is they want with any Red camera, past or present, really should look at their shooting skills, not blame Red.

Since I have been vocal about this subject lately, I do think it's fair to point out that I do make a distinction between those who feel entitled to have the latest and greatest for practically nothing and those who have been on the upgrade path and have now come across a challenging dilemma. I think a lot of people who have voiced their dislike for the Weapon upgrade have done so in an articulate way, and don't fit the profile of some I see on other forums who literally feel it is their right to own a camera that has top of the line features for under $1000. That is just not realistic. There are literally dozens of lenses I want to own right now. I can't justify the cost to get them all, but I certainly want them. Supply and demand has driven up the prices of lenses.

With time to reflect on the events of the past week, I have come to understand why some may be frustrated. I think RED understands it too as they have made some efforts to clarify some things and to leave the door open on some other upgrade paths to Weapon in the future. I do think there are probably some people who would benefit from sitting down with their business plans and seeing what makes sense in terms of camera ownership moving forward. This is a great time for cameras but also a challenging time if your business is not able to get ROI at the pace the industry moves now. Some may find that not owning cameras is actually a better approach in 2015, while others may be knocking it out of the park with ROI and happy to stay along the upgrade path. Both approaches are valid.

 

[Daniel Reed]

Thanks for the sentiment Jarred.

we are not abandoning the "lower" end and just focusing on the super high end.

With all the running around for NAB, finding the time to write out your thoughts to this extent clearly shows how you, Jim, and the Red team are fully dedicated to all of your customers/family.

Some of the funnier replies in this thread remind how absurd reactions can be sometimes, myself included.

I'll buy the competitors $2 bill instead. I don't care if they cost $35. Fuck 'em

hahaha, I had a great laugh reading that. :beer:

Reminded me of the ole "Red vs Blue" series, I could totally hear Grif or maybe Church pontificating that rant.

[video=youtube;-jqeCDNjdow]http://www.youtube.com/watch?t=26&v=-jqeCDNjdow[/video]

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Since

This is a great time for cameras but also a challenging time if your business is not able to get ROI at the pace the industry moves now. Some may find that not owning cameras is actually a better approach in 2015, while others may be knocking it out of the park with ROI and happy to stay along the upgrade path. Both approaches are valid.

This is the crux of the biscuit. The heart of the matter. And why it would benefit RED just as much as it would benefit red users, to find innovative ways to enable users to stay on the upgrade path - ways which would also line the pockets of RED simultaneously. This can be done. As the industry has changed, it may make sense to make some modifications to the upgrade model... that's all I'm suggesting. Not asking for a hand-out (don't need one).

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

This is the crux of the biscuit. The heart of the matter. And why it would benefit RED just as much as it would benefit red users, to find innovative ways to enable users to stay on the upgrade path - ways which would also line the pockets of RED simultaneously. This can be done. As the industry has changed, it may make sense to make some modifications to the upgrade model... that's all I'm suggesting. Not asking for a hand-out (don't need one).

Exactly the conclusion I arrived at and mentioned in one of my earlier posts.

RED needs to OWN the upgrade methodology and become the BEST AT IT. I have a three year old BMW and already my dealer sends me cards inviting me to update it to the latest and greatest and keep my "payment the same"... etc. There are ways RED can make some innovations in this area. If only they looked at it not as a <sarcasm on> "favor being done to low-budget indie filmmaker jerks with a sense of entitlement who think they deserve the latest cameras given away for free" </sarcasm off>, but as a patentable business process idea even.

Let's all repeat this mantra -- We can never demand RED do something it doesn't want to do. Similarly, RED cannot force us to do what we don't want to. This relationship is built on an idea of mutual benefit.

Just as we place a goodwill value on RED's receptiveness and responsiveness to customer pain points and needs, RED must place some goodwill value on that individual's investment of time and effort into the RED platform and not just say 'maybe the RED platform isn't for you'. That'd stink of elistism. Which is just as bad (and in my view, worse) than entitlement.

 

[Ryan Lightbourn]

Dont worry we are not abandoning the "lower" end and just focusing on the super high end.

Wait, SO YOU MEAN OG SCARLET IS FINALLY GETTING 4.5K WS?!?!

 

[Samir Patel]

Wait, SO YOU MEAN OG SCARLET IS FINALLY GETTING 4.5K WS?!?!

Yeah doubt this will ever happen. Btw someone at RED should update the scarlet page in the store it currently states 4.5K and anamorphic. Guess some could consider that false advertising

 

[Clayton Taylor]

Jarred - One thing that confuses me is the move from Scarlet MX to Scarlet Dragon - I understand the price increase back to 12,500. I was hoping to make the move to dragon by the end of this year, but please try to understand my confustion.

To upgrade it costs $12,500.... To buy a Scarlet Dragon brand spanking new (meaning two camera bodies) it's only $13,050 with my EDU discount... so basically for $550 more I get a second camera.... That's one thing I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around. At least at $9,500 for Scarlet MX - > Scarlet Dragon, it made more sense. Hope that helps explain some of my confusion.

 

[Jarred Land]

Jarred - One thing that confuses me is the move from Scarlet MX to Scarlet Dragon - I understand the price increase back to 12,500. I was hoping to make the move to dragon by the end of this year, but please try to understand my confustion.

To upgrade it costs $12,500.... To buy a Scarlet Dragon brand spanking new (meaning two camera bodies) it's only $13,050 with my EDU discount... so basically for $550 more I get a second camera.... That's one thing I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around. At least at $9,500 for Scarlet MX - > Scarlet Dragon, it made more sense. Hope that helps explain some of my confusion.

It's not really apples to apples to compare whatever your specific educational discount is against "normal" pricing, but the best thing for you to do is pretty obvious....