For The Indies / Our Scarlet customers...

[Grant Smucker]

Thanks Jarred!

 

[Thomas Koch]

I'm sorry to say this, but $19.5K is just too much for me. I love my dragon and will continue to use it and rent it as much as I can, but I can't swing that much coin. I'm sure it will still be in use 2 years from now, and along with whatever camera platform I move to in the future.

 

[Lee Saxon]

Having seen your posts a few weeks back that Weapon was an addition to the line-up not a replacement for Epic or Scarlet, I was not nervous that the "low end" was being "abandoned." Though of course I'm glad to hear you reaffirm it.

The only thing that DOES make me nervous (for you guys, as much as for the customers, because as you say R&D costs and volume are big issues in a market this small) is having two separate lines of modules. I'm really looking forward to seeing that addressed. Maybe an Epic Dragon 1.1 and Scarlet Dragon 1.1 which are identical except for the new module connector (and maybe they should also have the new cable-less monitor ports so you won't have to build two sets of monitors )? Maybe some new version of the +1 module which also adapts to the new module connector?

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

Bravo, Mister Land!!!

 

[M.Halsell]

The foreword from Jarred was appropriate and timely. The Weapon is an aggressive initiative and priced accordingly. But zooming out a bit, this type of market leadership is RED's DNA. RED is still a young company compared to the other camera manufacturers. So they have to be careful, footing has to be sure. Do we really want to see RED collapse from an implosion? Some owners will have to stand down on the upgrade, albeit unfortunate and with gritted teeth, but no harm no foul, no conspiracy or indictment. Its a knuckle game, from the top with the RED inner circle all the way to the bottom to every RED user trying to make it happen.

RED has yet to gimp on any camera product. There have been some misses accessory wise, but RED has always given the correct amount of energy and consideration to their cameras. Still alot of business out here, alot more shooting thats gotta be done. Its not going away. The RED ecosystem now has 3rd party module support, better regional camera support, bigtime directors endorsing and actively using RED cameras, Prores (a step in the right direction), solid leadership with Jarred (no wishy washy suit and tie guy), big daddy Jim (pretending to be retired) and Graeme (the silent giant). Very little downside, very little.

 

[Jacob Callaghan]

I must say i was rather underwealmed with the release of the weapon. I am currently an mx owner. I love the camera. I love reds customer service and attention to detail.

I like the weapon i think it fills alot of needs that many high end users need. Although i am not a high-end user. I am not shooting large budget big production projects. I also feel alot of red users are not. To me what has made this camera so special is the ability to take the upmost quality and put in the hands of the indie film maker. I see perfectly clear why red would want to branch out to the highend market and directly compete with arri. I just hope they do not abandon those that are not able to justify the price. My epic mx is a great camera and i will continue to shoot with it for years to come. I just hope red wont forget us and give us the new core technology but in the base line version. I dont need prores and all of the big procution workflow solutions. I need the striped down version. But i dont want to see it be as stripped down as the scarlet. I would love to see red have two versions of there highend cameras. One the luxury model with every bell and whistle. And then the other same sensor same frame rates just no need for all the extra things that not everyone uses.

 

[Phil Holland]

I would love to see red have two versions of there highend cameras. One the luxury model with every bell and whistle. And then the other same sensor same frame rates just no need for all the extra things that not everyone uses.

Kind of like Epic and Weapon Dragon?



Seriously though. What you described is exactly what Weapon is all about. It's a full force production camera. A powerful one at that. It's targeted towards users who need those extra features because there are certain areas of the industry that are "asking for more and more" from our cameras. Weapon is giving that "more" and here we are.

Jarred stated that if you are a Dragon owner you will have an upgrade path in the future to new tech. We don't know what that will cost or when, but RED is paying attention to everybodies wants and needs.

 

[Brandon Kelly]

"And there is definitely a future for Scarlet Dragon... you just don't know about it yet and it is not anywhere near. "

Thanks for the post Jarred. I own a Scarlet mx and love my camera. Hopefully one day soon I can upgrade to Scarlet D! This just made me even more motivated to try and make that move. Thanks man.

 

[Micheal Del Castillo]

"And there is definitely a future for Scarlet Dragon... you just don't know about it yet and it is not anywhere near. "

Thanks for the post Jarred. I own a Scarlet mx and love my camera. Hopefully one day soon I can upgrade to Scarlet D! This just made me even more motivated to try and make that move. Thanks man.

Do you not have to upgrade to Dragon by June and loose the upgrade option completely?

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Isn't Weapon Magnesium and Weapon Carbon just high end versions of Scarlet Dragon and Epic Dragon.
There are similarities to them both.

Weapon Carbon is like Epic Dragon; the high end processing power to enable the best capabilities of the Dragon sensor.
Weapon Magnesium is like Scarlet Dragon; the same kind of body with the same kind of specs up to a point of certain capabilities not available because of the lower computing power.

Isn't it all just a four part ladder for the cameras?

1. Weapon Carbon = The best camera available with 8K possibilities.
2. Weapon Magnesium = Lower computing power but with the same capabilities when on the same settings as Weapon Carbon.
3. Epic Dragon = Lower computing power than Weapon Magnesium but with the same capabilities on the same settings as Weapon Magnesium.
4. Scarlet Dragon = Lower computing power than Epic Dragon, but with the same capabilities as Epic Dragon on the same settings.

I don't see the problem with this lineup. Scarlet Dragon is no way near Weapon Carbon and is more close to Epic Dragon. Epic Dragon is more close to Weapon Magnesium than Weapon Carbon and so on.

 

[Dunkan Wolf]

Hopefully prices will come down sometime in 2016...

I would gladly pay for Weapon if 6K was a 10k$ upgrade and 8K a 20k$ upgrade.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

All money talk aside, what I don't quite understand is where the plan stems from not using the weapon body for epic and scarlet insides. I thought that has just not come yet, but Jarred's comment about the AL weapon (just a body upgrade without changing insides) being not too bad of an idea suggests that it never was intended to be used for the other product lines.

 

[Scott Crawley]

All money talk aside, what I don't quite understand is where the plan stems from not using the weapon body for epic and scarlet insides. I thought that has just not come yet, but Jarred's comment about the AL weapon (just a body upgrade without changing insides) being not too bad of an idea suggests that it never was intended to be used for the other product lines.

Knowing that Jim and Jarred are image craftsmen at heart my theory about this begins with a film analogy. How many times have we sat back and watched our completed film and focused compulsively upon one shot or sequence that didn't turn out just right? I could go back endlessly tweaking, trying to fix every little thing but eventually you have to let it go.

With hardware systems like these there is no going back, so how do you fix those irritating shortcomings? The only way to erase those mistakes is to start again from zero and go for absolute model wide perfection. That's what you do.

 

[Andrey Blanco]

All money talk aside, what I don't quite understand is where the plan stems from not using the weapon body for epic and scarlet insides. I thought that has just not come yet, but Jarred's comment about the AL weapon (just a body upgrade without changing insides) being not too bad of an idea suggests that it never was intended to be used for the other product lines.

I would Like to hear that too, I think in order to keep most people attache two RED they must offer at least one of these:

1) Weapon Body upgrade only (Without Changing inside, ProRes, etc)
or
2) Weapon Body Upgrade a bit cheaper. instead of offer those "FREE" accessories.

This is by far the most expensive RED upgrade program ever with the less benefits (Proress and mostly aesthetic improvement) if you think from RED ONE to Epic Stage 3 was only $10,500 with a lot of improvements (Higher Speeds, 5K, Small and Lither body, etc, etc) Something is not Right with weapon Program and RED sooner or later will realize it .

I'm don't think I'm going to upgrade now until they offer more sexy options, But I know I will start exploring other alternatives to keep my business running. Right now invest $16,000 on a C300MKII instead of Weapon looks like make more sense and deserve some serious consideration.

 

[Scott Crawley]

I think in order to keep most people attache two RED they must offer at least one of these:

1) Weapon Body upgrade only (Without Changing inside, ProRes, etc)
or
2) Weapon Body Upgrade a bit cheaper. instead of offer those "FREE" accessories.

But Weapon is not made for "most" of us. It is not an Epic replacement, it is a new and somewhat niche top end model. Vista Vision and the expense of larger formats are niche products and it makes sense for Red to create a new line for those things to exist in. To rephrase, I believe that some of the Weapon product line yet to come may exist in a more traditional film business model which is a rent/lease model only due to the limited nature of the demand. That is what I am finally coming to understand thanks to this thread.

Sure we would all like to have access to Vista and medium formats but we can not or will not pay the freight to own it. It is a rental product. The cost is what makes them of limited demand, not our interest. With that in mind I think as technology marches on Weapon will trickle down, but I'm not waiting for it and I certainly wouldn't kill myself to own it now.

The whole scenario puts the cinema tech rental game into sharper relief for me, now that the cycle is repeating and the ripple expanding. How long will it take computing and storage to come down in price and make the cost of digital Vista more accessible as to become commonplace... six years, maybe... eight?

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Knowing that Jim and Jarred are image craftsmen at heart my theory about this begins with a film analogy. How many times have we sat back and watched our completed film and focused compulsively upon one shot or sequence that didn't turn out just right? I could go back endlessly tweaking, trying to fix every little thing but eventually you have to let it go.

With hardware systems like these there is no going back, so how do you fix those irritating shortcomings? The only way to erase those mistakes is to start again from zero and go for absolute model wide perfection. That's what you do.

I understand what you're saying. I only think the analogy doesn't quite apply. The way you're putting it, Scarlet and Epic would be obsolete, but they are not and neither is the path they are on.

Starting over doesn't exclude starting over with Scarlet and Epic models. Or for sake of leaving out the model names and making it more comparable to the R1-EPIC change: the low, middle and top product lines can all share that sort of makeover and become something different, something new.

So, what I don't see is why that makeover can't be applied (in form factor, I/O options or placement, etc) towards the lower end of the product line if these lines are not meant to be dropped. I'm not talking about 8K or more processing power or more functionality. Im only talking about the same way Scarlet and Epic have been sharing the same modules and form factor. I don't see anything in the form factor that wouldn't seem possible or useful for Scarlet shooters and their cameras.

As I said: I always thought that will come in maybe a year or two, but Jarred's comment sounded that is not or was not the plan.

 

[Antonio Forjaz]

Hi Jarred,

Thanks for everything, and I think everyone should just say thanks to begin with, and not whine...I never seen any other company in the world do what RED does. How many computers, cameras etc I have lying around that simply don't cut it any more???? Yet, my Red One MX SSD still kicks ass, and it is a few years old. I took it out the other day, up graded the firmware and shot...and it looked great.

I am just happy to have ordered on the first day, hope my time stamp is low and I get weapon soon. I have a feature to shoot in September, you think by then, Weapon will be in my hands???

Best

Antonio

 

[Patrick Grossien]

...
I'm don't think I'm going to upgrade now until they offer more sexy options, But I know I will start exploring other alternatives to keep my business running. Right now invest $16,000 on a C300MKII instead of Weapon looks like make more sense and deserve some serious consideration.

Andrey, there's no need to react! I saw this with Final Cut X and with hardware products as well... As soon as people dont understand what the company is up to, they drop everything and leave. No matter if the current product is working great or not.

I've said this before:
Scarlet and Epic are producing the same image quality as Weapon as long as the same settings are being applied. Similar to how Scarlet and Epic were comparable to each other until now, Epic and Weapon are now to each other.
The Dragon sensor is delivering (and not only from my point of view) the best image in the industry. Just because no new camera has been announced this year for the lower end of the camera food chain from RED, doesn't mean they are old or obsolete or should be exchanged. I for one don't need a new camera every year

If Weapon doesn't offer anything new for you personally, just keep on using what you have! I would love to have some of the new things Weapon is offering. But Scarlet Dragon and Epic Dragon are two of the best cameras out there and there's no reason not to wait another year and see what RED comes up with. And I know they'll have something new for all of us sometime down the road. Save your money or invest in lenses or other gear. That's what I'll do.

 

[Tim Morten]

I'm an an Indy, more hobbiest than pro. Red is outstanding for providing an upgrade path, and it is sorely tempting at $12k, but I compare the cost with the personal value (different from the absolute value), and I don't think I can justify.

Don't need prores, weight/calibration/noise/DR appear to be evolutionary changes rather than revolutionary, cost of new media/accs is non-trivial even with the very generous subsidy. Vista would be awesome, but the CF plus sensor fee is out of my ballpark. The MG would be a stretch, but the personal value would have to add up to $12k, and I'm on the fence about that.

I really appreciate the reassurance that Dragon is not EOL, and that we will still have an upgrade path in the future. Red is an outstanding company.

 

[Hugh Scully]

I finally plunked down on a new Scarlet Dragon and I could not be happier. The skintones, highlight handling, the beautiful texture, and the richness and depth of the color are just knocking me out. It's the same sensor. It's a Red Dragon.

Here's what I figure: As Red improves its technology including color science, making Weapon for Fincher, and all you high end Dudes, a lot of that tech comes pouring down the rest of the line. Weapons make for better Scarlets.