Final Cut Pro X Released

[M Most]

New and old is not the same thing as good and bad.

Can we put that at the top of every topic on RedUser? :thumbsup:

 

[Tim Morten]

"All of this"? A lot of it is not broken in any objective sense.

Good to start the morning with a laugh.

Look, I get it: you love Apple, and you think they're going to come through.

The bottom line is that they shipped a product that does not currently meet the needs of the pro community. Is it possible that they could fix this at some undetermined time in the future? Sure.

This isn't about whether it's conceivable that Apple could fix it someday. This is about Apple having screwed up today. FCP6/7 are end-of-life, and FCPX is unusable in a professional setting.

It's unrealistic to ask a community of people who make their living editing to NOT take that as a strong negative message from Apple, compounded by an obvious focus on consumer features, compounded be an utter lack of direct communication - their mouthpiece at this point is a NYT editor who knows little about editing and who apparently sought Apple out rather than the other way around.

The circumstantial evidence strongly suggests that Apple is more focused on the consumer community than the pro community. Other companies, who have viable products that fit professional editors' needs, have not made these mistakes. An investment in Avid, Adobe, Autodesk, Assimilate is an investment that we expect will continue to improve in a professional direction with coming releases. Adobe already has a great engine to build on, Avid has an interface that many of us love (even though you think it feels "old").

So if YOU love magnetic timelines and binless clip systems, by all means stick with FCP and keep your fingers crossed for the future. But to be dismissive of the legitimate concerns being voiced here, and to be dismissive that we're unimpressed with a souped up iMovie editing paradigm... that does start to sound like it's coming from someone with a little Apple sticker on their car.

- Tim

 

[Chris Kenny]

Avid is going to go 64bit in their next release, which would mean a rewrite. If that becomes a rewrite on other parts of the architecture is another question.

64-bit doesn't mean a rewrite, it means, for the most part, just cleaning up some assumptions the code makes about memory sizes.

And another question is that if you compare Avid structure to a very well-built temple that have lasted this long and is still one of the strongest NLE's on the market and then compare it to a new freshly built house out of cheap wood that FCPX is, then it's not going to last long in a hurricane (large project with tight deadlines and a lot of post production people). It doesn't matter if that house is new.
New and old is not the same thing as good and bad.

This is true in general, but with software, a lot of the choices you might make today are different from the choices you'd have made in the past. Hardware capabilities change, new use cases emerge, and standards for user interface (both formal standards from OS vendors, and informal "this is what a modern interface looks like" standards that users have) evolve.

There are too many problems and not any date when it's fixed, it's a no go for professionals. If you are on a tight deadline and work a lot with editing, then you would understand that.

I'm not advocating that people switch today. Indeed, one of my points was that even if FCP X had XML exporting, video output, etc. nobody should have expected a new app to be a drop-in replacement from day one in complex pro workflows anyway.

Also, the things that Apple supposedly adressed officially turned out to be a bit false... like the "working close with red on r3d support in FCPX", which is by the Red team stated false.
How do we know then for sure that the rest of that list of things to come is true? Rumors spread fast and most of the times rumors are bullshit.

Apple has independently told several reputable outlets/sources that the features I mentioned are being worked on. Pretending this might not be true because a non-editor journalist managed to misreport something is pure unadulterated FUD.

WE DO NOT HAVE THAT TIME AS THE INDUSTRY IS EVOLVING DURING THAT TIME

FCP X is the most radical change the NLE market has seen in over a decade. The advantages it has now over other systems are very unlikely to be matched by competitors in the time it takes for Apple to implement key missing features. You think Avid or Adobe are going to radically overhaul, say, media organization features in their apps in the next six months?

Internet message boards tend to operate on Internet time. People were screaming the day after FCP X was released about Apple having not responded to the criticism yet -- as if Apple had ever responded to anything that quickly. Actual markets move more slowly. It's very easy to get a severely exaggerated sense of how time-sensitive this all is.

 

[Tim Morten]

FCP X is the most radical change the NLE market has seen in over a decade.

LMAO.

At best, magnetic timeline and binless editing are evolutionary steps from an already highly effective track/bin paradigm - at worst they are gimmicks. IMO, the only thing "radical" about FCPX is that it fixed FCP's underlying cobbled performance.

It might make a fine package some day when it grows up. It's going to be a long time before that happens, and most of us will need to move on in the mean time. Don't take it personally.

- Tim

 

[Chris Kenny]

Look, I get it: you love Apple, and you think they're going to come through.

No. I've watched Apple for a long time. I didn't go into the launch of FCP X with the assumption that Apple was abandoning the pro market (which a lot of people did, for various mostly bad reasons), I'm paying attention to what Apple is actually saying, and I think they're going to come through.

This isn't about whether it's conceivable that Apple could fix it someday. This is about Apple having screwed up today. FCP6/7 are end-of-life, and FCPX is unusable in a professional setting.

The discussion is whether or not existing FCP users should be switching to alternatives as a consequence of FCP X. This has (or should have) a lot more to do with the long-term prospects of various NLE platforms than with what's on sale on June 26, 2011.

The circumstantial evidence strongly suggests that Apple is more focused on the consumer community than the pro community.

Nearly everything people attribute to Apple not caring about pros is just Apple being Apple. Is this annoying? Yes. But it doesn't have the long-term implications that Apple actually disregarding the pro market would have.

But to be dismissive of the legitimate concerns being voiced here, and to be dismissive that we're unimpressed with a souped up iMovie editing paradigm...

I'm not "being dismissive of legitimate concerns", I'm pointing out that given Apple's pattern of initial releases that are light on features, the things Apple is saying, and the technical strength of some aspects of the new product, it's extremely short-sighted for existing FCP users looking for a long-term replacement for FCP to not give FCP X a bit of time to have an opportunity to turn into that replacement.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

LMAO.

At best, magnetic timeline and binless editing are evolutionary steps from an already highly effective track/bin paradigm - at worst they are gimmicks.

Been part of Vegas Pro for several years now. Yes, it's not as fancy, but it performs the same function as magnetic timeline.

Here's an excellent post by Mike Jones, back from April: http://www.mikejones.tv/journal/2011/4/13/new-fcp-x-is-really-not-so-new.html. I do like the Auditioning feature, that is a feature that can be quite useful, and a true innovation.

 

[Chris Kenny]

It might make a fine package some day when it grows up. It's going to be a long time before that happens, and most of us will need to move on in the mean time.

I don't see that it's necessarily going to be that long. There's probably a 50% chance video I/O will arrive with Lion (because it's all tied up with AV Foundation, Apple's new media architecture, which is probably tied up with other OS components), and an API for accessing sequence data (which would enable integration with practically any workflow via third-party or in-house tools) could easily arrive within six months. Those two features alone would make FCP X viable for a lot of workflows, including our standard in-house Red workflow.

People keep saying FCP X is completely unusable in high-end workflows. This is true. But the number of factors that prevent it from being usable in those workflows is fairly small, and the technical challenges involved in implementing the relevant features do not seem to be huge.

(Yes, there's also the whole "They ruined the interface in ways that will never be fixed" crowd, but that's subjective. And though saying this will probably piss people off, it's worth noting that if similar complaints surrounding the initial release of OS X 10.0 are any guide, a lot of people saying this now will feel differently in the future.)

 

[JanneJansson]

If Apple fixed the performace in FCP7 it would have been OK!
If they added r3d support and a nicer color tool it would have been GREAT!
If they also added 3D editing and some inspired goodies from shake it would have been INSANELY GOOD!

FCPX now = fail

 

[Uli Plank]

If Lion is so important to fix some issues, why release FCPX before Lion? And why put FCS3 EOL now?

 

[Chris Kenny]

If Apple fixed the performace in FCP7 it would have been OK!
If they added r3d support and a nicer color tool it would have been GREAT!
If they also added 3D editing and some inspired goodies from shake it would have been INSANELY GOOD!

The performance enhancements in FCP X are a consequence of it being a 64-bit app that extensively uses OpenCL and Grand Central Dispatch. Basically, getting this kind of performance required writing a new app. As did adding support for non-QuickTime media. (Yes, there's no R3D yet, but the new architecture opens the door.)

Folks asking for "FCP 8" -- FCP 7 with FCP X's technical enhancements --a re asking for something impossible. Apple had to write a new app. They did. Now that new app needs a bit of time to mature.

It's true that Apple could have gone with a more traditional user interface, but in my opinion writing a new app and not rethinking the UI in the process would have been leaving an opportunity on the table.

 

[Chris Kenny]

If Lion is so important to fix some issues, why release FCPX before Lion? And why put FCS3 EOL now?

Because there are quite a lot of users who don't need those features, and Apple gets the app to market faster this way.

As for EOLing FCS 3, I agree that it's a little confusing how aggressive Apple has been with that. There's something going on there, and I wonder if we'll ever know what.

 

[Scott Crawley]

If Lion is so important to fix some issues, why release FCPX before Lion? And why put FCS3 EOL now?

@ QUESTION 1: Presumably to allow users to begin getting aquatinted.

@ QUESTION 2: Who knows? It sure seems like a significant error that could easily be reversed. If for no other reason than to ease the tension.

The bottom line is that they shipped a product that does not currently meet the needs of the pro community. Is it possible that they could fix this at some undetermined time in the future? Sure.

This isn't about whether it's conceivable that Apple could fix it someday. This is about Apple having screwed up today. FCP6/7 are end-of-life, and FCPX is unusable in a professional setting.

It's unrealistic to ask a community of people who make their living editing to NOT take that as a strong negative message from Apple, compounded by an obvious focus on consumer features, compounded be an utter lack of direct communication - their mouthpiece at this point is a NYT editor who knows little about editing and who apparently sought Apple out rather than the other way around.

The circumstantial evidence strongly suggests that Apple is more focused on the consumer community than the pro community. Other companies, who have viable products that fit professional editors' needs, have not made these mistakes. An investment in Avid, Adobe, Autodesk, Assimilate is an investment that we expect will continue to improve in a professional direction with coming releases. Adobe already has a great engine to build on, Avid has an interface that many of us love (even though you think it feels "old").

There it is, the current climate, very succinctly stated. Any reasonable person would be hard pressed to argue with such legitimate concerns.

Only time will provide the answers, but it may not be that long. Lion will certainly provide some of those answers in a few weeks, and more will likely follow when the new Mac Pros arrive in August, and some expect updates in the Fall. In a few months things should be clearer and we may find out if the myopic panic was warranted.

I'm readying my life boat, but this ship isn't likely to sail for 6 or 12 months if at all. I'm OK on the S.S. FCP7 for now, but I'm not under the same pressures as many.

 

[Carey Lee Coffey]

I'm editing my first project on FCP X as we speak. It's F-ing awesome! Wake up people!

 

[Brandon J.F.]

I'm editing my first project on FCP X as we speak. It's F-ing awesome! Wake up people!

Did you shoot it on your iPhone?

 

[Joe Carney]

I haven't read all 86 pages, so I hope I'm not being redundent...
When people poopoo the higher end Pro comunity on their issues with the new FCPX, one thing has not been mentioned, the effect on all the learning/training institutions around the world who's task it is to train students for the professional world. They just got bitchslapped by Apple. It's the pro community that sets the standards and requirements for schools to meet. Which then influences what students purchase.
It's no wonder Apple is making any promise it can to avoid a total disaster.

One more thing.Graeme mentioned sqllte as the embedded database for FCPX. While it's a fine tool for that use, it is also very popular on mobile platforms (hint, hint). What it is not, is a great multiuser database tool. Not that something couldn't be developed to assist it in that manner, but compared to other open source SQL relational platforms,(ie MySQL, PostgreSQL, Firebird),. It doesn't measure up at all. I'm surprised Apple didn't hook up with one of the better MySQL forks (Non Oracle bound) and run with it. Not iPad friendly I guess.

 

[Robert Frank]

I'm editing my first project on FCP X as we speak. It's F-ing awesome! Wake up people!

Wake up in what sense?

FWIW, although I haven't purchased it, I like the interface. And who can discount the reported major increase in system performance over FCP7?

I'm curious as to what type of project you are editing. What file format is the source media? Do you plan on staying completely inside the app until final output? Are you working on it alone? Tell us more.

 

[M Most]

I'm editing my first project on FCP X as we speak. It's F-ing awesome! Wake up people!

Did you shoot with multiple cameras that you want to be able to view simultaneously? Do you want to finish it in collaboration with either a colorist or a sound editor? Or mix it on an actual mixing stage? Or add another editor? Or create an archive for the studio that can be used on other systems, now and in the future? Or deliver an HD videotape version?

I hope the answer to all of those questions is currently no, because if it isn't, you're in for a lot of hurt. For many, if not most of us, working in the professional end of the mainstream industry, the answer to all of those questions is almost always yes, which is why you're seeing the reactions that you're seeing. It has very little to do with the interface, the editing changes, the similarity to iMovie, or any of the other things that some people have been harping on. It has everything to do with the omission of basic capabilities that every professional project requires. Finishing in one program, on one box, by one person may be just what you and other individuals want and need. But it's not the way larger projects work, regardless of what Randy Ubillos might think. And regardless of what one may think of the iMovie derived editorial methods, without the basic capabilities I just described the program is unusable on most professionally finished projects. Period.

 

[Chris Kenny]

When people poopoo the higher end Pro comunity on their issues with the new FCPX, one thing has not been mentioned, the effect on all the learning/training institutions around the world who's task it is to train students for the professional world. They just got bitchslapped by Apple. It's the pro community that sets the standards and requirements for schools to meet. Which then influences what students purchase.
It's no wonder Apple is making any promise it can to avoid a total disaster.

Could the rhetoric in here be any more melodramatic? Apple is making any promise it can to avoid total disaster? Reading Philip Hodgetts's first post with respect to missing FCP X features, it seems as if he was told XML or some API was being worked on before the product even shiped. Anyone who believes Apple really wasn't aware that pro users need things like XML exporting and video output, and has suddenly decided to develop these things since the outcry started last Tuesday, is not living on this planet. It's pretty ludicrously unlikely that Apple was unaware of these things. And if they somehow had been, there's no way they'd have started telling people they were going to implement them within hours of the release; it would have taken them far longer to decide.

One more thing.Graeme mentioned sqllte as the embedded database for FCPX. While it's a fine tool for that use, it is also very popular on mobile platforms (hint, hint). What it is not, is a great multiuser database tool. Not that something couldn't be developed to assist it in that manner, but compared to other open source SQL relational platforms,(ie MySQL, PostgreSQL, Firebird),. It doesn't measure up at all. I'm surprised Apple didn't hook up with one of the better MySQL forks (Non Oracle bound) and run with it. Not iPad friendly I guess.

FCP X stores project/event data via Core Data. This means the on-disk data representation is completely abstracted from the application. Core Data isn't presently designed for multiuser access or multi-device access, but it's Apple's technology; they can add this if they want to, and they might well want to in the future for reasons going well beyond its usefulness to FCP X.

 

[D Fuller]

Because there are quite a lot of users who don't need those features, and Apple gets the app to market faster this way.

As for EOLing FCS 3, I agree that it's a little confusing how aggressive Apple has been with that. There's something going on there, and I wonder if we'll ever know what.

Chris these two statements taken together are not confusing at all. They seem to be as clear an indication as we can have, given Apple's communication style, that Apple is EOLing its involvement with the high end of the editing business. There's way more money for them in a less-demanding edit market.

It's nothing new or surprising, really. It is a common theme for Apple to play around in a pro market for a while and then just abandon it. Shake. X-serve. FCP Studio. FCP Server. What could be clearer? (Well, a clear statement from Apple could be clearer, but that's really not likely.)

 

[Dave Blackham]

I haven't read all 86 pages, so I hope I'm not being redundent...
When people poopoo the higher end Pro comunity on their issues with the new FCPX, one thing has not been mentioned, the effect on all the learning/training institutions around the world who's task it is to train students for the professional world. They just got bitchslapped by Apple. It's the pro community that sets the standards and requirements for schools to meet. Which then influences what students purchase.
It's no wonder Apple is making any promise it can to avoid a total disaster.

Good point, just my two penny's worth, and Im sure theres many more people like me, I've purchased or commissioned to install several hundred of FCP systems with associated infrastructure from main stream broadcasters to universities, Hi end colledges and my own facilities. Im about to help make decisions to install very many more suites some with in high end Educational establishments. At the moment FCP X isn't on the list, I hope this can change very soon but we will need to see a realistic roadmap to implement tools that are needed in a very short time frame.