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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

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Rob- posting the same thing 20 times is not going to change anything man. You are a smart dude and Im sure you will find a way to make it work. Or you will sell your Epic and buy something else...
You have made up your mind to hate this update and post all things negative in the hopes of.... ?? Red changing their mind??

Im just really sick of this passive aggressive tone that somehow Red owes you something... they dent. We all still owe them for making the same cameras ACADEMY AWARD WINNING FILMMAKERS use... accessible to us.

I just saw Kristen Stwewart tackle a digital lion in the BD Dawn trailer ... Epic would not save that crap... I say focus your angst on something you CAN change... better story telling. Nobody likes to see you bummed
but please stop trying to pollute what is otherwise a fantastic announcement.

Terry, some people just love to bitch... save your logic, its lost on emotion at the moment. Rob please consider giving your fruitless whining a rest. Thanks man,
 
KETCH ROSSi said:
Not to be in any way a slap in the face to some of my good friends and fellow REDUSER here, but a check with reality... And a serious look at what RED is doing for us, not to us, and how is still the BEST company in this industry, not only for their products but for how they conduct business and their transparency with us.


Let me voice my opinion here on the above...


RED

RED could have simply just care less of informing all of us on what they are going to do with prices, Canon, Sony, Arri... they sure don't announce anything about anything, they just do it, and all of a sudden BOOM, your camera is now OBSOLETE, not that it lost value, IT is OBSOLETE, meaning that a WAY better camera, for the same price or much less has just came out and it has OBSOLETE yours, in many cases the new camera is a much cheaper camera meant for the prosumer, yet it does almost as well as the one for PRO that you paid great deal of money for, the new trend with this is even worst, were now companies are actually putting out anew model that obsoletes the other in such a short sub-session that is no longer funny.

Yet, not every one needs to have always the litist, not unless you can afford to, having the latest in technology it is a luxury and for very few a necessity, as in current updates of this companies, this updates are a far cry form giving technological advancements to were you absolutely need to have it vs. the one you bought of the prior generation, so if you can't afford it continue to use the one you bought already till it pays off with work NOT RENTAL* (see below on this).


RENTAL

RENTAl is not a game, it is a SERIOUS Business, and it requires the a substantial amount of money to open a RENATL company, I almost went in to it, just because upset of how some companies do it, and I had several investors that wonted to go in with me, and that investment was in the MILLIONS, buying a camera kit, be it a RED ONE, or SCARLET or EPIC, or any other camera for that matter, does NOT in the most ABSOLUTE of ways make you a RENTAL company.

No Movie production of any kind will come to you and rent your camera, unless you have something that absolutely NO Rental company has, WHY? Because Rental companies give packages, which include EVERYTHING they need ot shoot their Movies and projects, they have Insurance, no, not like yours, they have serious Insurance, and most importantly they have IMMEDIATE assistance and camera replacement, you don't.

JUst because RED is the first company to bring aInexpensive Digital Cinema Capable camera, which give many, many , many the possibility to buy them, this means that now thousands had to go in to Rentals, yet many did, and did so, without a Business Plan, did so without the knowledge of what a Rental company really is, and many did so without even knowing the camera and the Industry further crippling their chances of making any money with their cameras.

While some instead bought this cameras and worked with this cameras were they were the operator, the DP, the Producer, or occupying what ever position in an environment they already knew well, and give them a sure chance of making a bit of extra money in having their own gear, instead of needing to rent it themselves.



I mena no disrespect to any one, just don't be upset at RED, the market, as it has a life of its own and if you made the wrong business decisions is on you, not on RED.


I also have purchased EPIC-M cameras, and paid not full price but a PREMIUM do to the added cost at the time, and now I could care less of how much slash in price the EPIC M gets, because I have and continue to work with the camera, and I didn't buy it thinking on how much I was going to loose in selling it, neither I bought it to Rent, I don't RENT, why? Because I am not a Rental company, I am an owner user, very different, and when I made the investment I made it because I know I could, when times got tough, I sold what ever I needed to sale, even the cameras them selves, that is life, but it was always on me not on RED.

I have nothing but a HUGE THANK YOU to say to RED, and will continue to be their LOYAL customer, till they otherwise do something to no longer make be want to be ,and that will not happen just because they lowered praises, but it would only happen if they start building crappy cameras, or give me bad customer service.


We really need to step down for a moment, and ABSOLUTELY STOP whinnying about... ;)
Click to expand...

My point is not whining. My point is reacting with honesty, and giving honest feedback. I have nothing bad to say about Red. I actually have many positive feelings toward the guys. Few companies I actually feel a connection to that way. Kessler, K5600 - these are guys I deal with and spend time with beyond the scope of normal business - same with Red. It started with their awesome product, but it's also a human appreciation for how they do business. But a real friend is also honest, and realizes that no one is perfect and is willing to go beyond just saying "Rah rah you're great" no matter what.

The final decision has not been made yet. It helps Red to let them know how some of us will be impacted and how we feel about it.

You can be a small house that successfully rents. We have enough gear here to shoot a small fiction piece. Some lights we sub-rent from other rental companies. We offer expertise along with the rental. We do have customers. We also rent our stuff out to our own productions, charging clients reasonable rates on all of it. That too really helps the bottom line.
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
Rob- posting the same thing 20 times is not going to change anything man. You are a smart dude and Im sure you will find a way to make it work. Or you will sell your Epic and buy something else...
You have made up your mind to hate this update and post all things negative in the hopes of.... ?? Red changing their mind??

Im just really sick of this passive aggressive tone that somehow Red owes you something... they dent. We all still owe them for making the same cameras ACADEMY AWARD WINNING FILMMAKERS use... accessible to us.

I just saw Kristen Stwewart tackle a digital lion in the BD Dawn trailer ... Epic would not save that crap... I say focus your angst on something you CAN change... better story telling. Nobody likes to see you bummed
but please stop trying to pollute what is otherwise a fantastic announcement.

Terry, some people just love to bitch... save your logic, its lost on emotion at the moment. Rob please consider giving your fruitless whining a rest. Thanks man,
Click to expand...

beautifully put .. Alexey this goes for you too.. I'm sorry producers in Ukraine know nothing about cameras and only judge it by the price tag.. but that doesn't sound like it's RED's problem.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
The final decision has not been made yet. It helps Red to let them know how some of us will be impacted and how we feel about it.
Click to expand...

no offense but I hope that final decision isn't made with you and Alexey in mind as much as economic sense, and ethical behavior. and to tell you the truth I doubt you will play a role in their decision. I'm sure they hope you stay happy with them, but like I said before, once you upgrade your cameras to Dragon in a few short months you'll be able to rent them for mega $$$s again. if that doesn't work for you I'm sorry but move on man. plus like many said before me I don't think RED was formed with Rental houses in mind, it's about getting kick ass cameras into peoples hands for affordable prices. it's supposed to be about the people and the art. at least that's the romance I bought into. and yes I believe a company can do that and still turn a profit. specially if it's run by smart and ethical people. the proof is out there anyways. and if they can do that for even cheaper I say go for it. the cheaper the better. sorry rental houses, this isn't really for you. but the truth is also a lot of people are still gonna rent cameras and if I can rent a RED for $200-$250/day because of this price cut, you better believe I'm renting some Epics and running more then one cam on a job.
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
Rob- posting the same thing 20 times is not going to change anything man. You are a smart dude and Im sure you will find a way to make it work. Or you will sell your Epic and buy something else...
You have made up your mind to hate this update and post all things negative in the hopes of.... ?? Red changing their mind??

Im just really sick of this passive aggressive tone that somehow Red owes you something... they dent. We all still owe them for making the same cameras ACADEMY AWARD WINNING FILMMAKERS use... accessible to us.

I just saw Kristen Stwewart tackle a digital lion in the BD Dawn trailer ... Epic would not save that crap... I say focus your angst on something you CAN change... better story telling. Nobody likes to see you bummed
but please stop trying to pollute what is otherwise a fantastic announcement.

Terry, some people just love to bitch... save your logic, its lost on emotion at the moment. Rob please consider giving your fruitless whining a rest. Thanks man,
Click to expand...

Dude, I do think you can affect what Red does - I think we all do. This is part of what is great about their company. They listen. It's a real two-way relationship. I am allowed to not agree with others here. Group think and rah rah does not really help anything move forward - hearing many different voices does. Red itself was founded on the principle of going against group think, so it should be OK to not agree with the herd here - and I am not alone in my feelings. I am not saying they are bad guys, and I absolutely think the Epic is the best camera you can buy at any price.

Please also learn to differentiate issues. Scriptwriting and acting are not related to equipment investment decision making. I am not being emotional at all. I am being coldly rational and wondering how much $$$ this is going to cost me. I run a business, not a charity happy to lower my profits so that some beginner filmmaker I don't know can have cheaper access to an Epic. I can't afford to think that way (I do volunteer for charities, and have given free rentals to PSAs, but that was a choice.)
 
there are two kind of persons in this thread. person 1 is happy to get more tools for the same dollars to make what he wants and earn on it. person number 2 just owns for the ownings sake. these times are over. producers pay for skills. it shouldnt matter
what tools you offer to get to the goal.

and if you dont have producers paying for skills, well get better producers or better skills. Both will bring you much more dollares.
btw. thanks to this bold guy lurking around here and lowering prices.
 
everything can change (again)

everything can change (again)

after reading this crazy thread, here is my CRAZY idea (but who knows)

instead of a major price drop of the EPIC like planned, why not :

- keep all prices the same
- add a 'free' Meizler to every new EPIC purchase

And if your 'planned price reduction' was going to be more than what this 'Meizler free bundle' will cost you, then why not offer to all previous EPIC owners that same Meizler for a massive discount.

The 'new' EPIC de facto becomes a 'universal' Raw + baked-in camera with amazing in/out options. Previous EPIC owners don't see their camera brain / rental price going down all of the sudden and (hopefully) everyone is happy !
 
Im ordering new workstation. I will actually no be suprized if it drops in price in a year.
 
Stellar announcement...Stellar.

Appreciation is a two way street.

Glad to be on the same road as RED.
 
Alexey Datsenko said:
Ketch, every time on the shooting area the most asking question i heard every time is how much this Epic cost, not how many stops, not RAW, but how much is it, ant when producer is calling he asking the same how Epic is cool and how much is it, and when producer finding the camera he call to Alexa and know that it is 1500 usd for day then he call to Scarlet it is 200 usd day then he call to Epic it is 700-800 usd for day and he want to be sure that Epic it is the same level as Alexa but for less money and he asked: How cool is it in comparison with Alexa? And when he hear it is the same level he take Epic, even when he know that Scarlet can do everything the same as Epic for their shooting he take Epic because Scarlet for 200 usd can't be the good camera. I was at many shooting where the same things can be shoot at Scarlet but producers can't understand how Scarlet for 200 usd can do the same as Epic for 800 usd and he take Epic. So price is very important indicator of quality. And actually I have not meet producer who know the details about camera, they thinking only in money. Expensive camera is good, unexpensive camera it is risk. But it is just changing of thinking.

I think it is needs to go for production with Epic not for rental!
Click to expand...


Well, ignorance is also everywhere Alexey, and I also have come across a good share of it, but it is always up to those of us that know better, to explain to those that don't, and imprint in their minds that there is a difference.

If they have no money and look for the cheapest alternative then there is no winning it, but if they can rent an Alexa then there sure is a way to show them how the Epic will outperform that camera in every single aspect, just needs a bit of Post vs. the Alexa, but with a much higher resolution product no matter if they don't go to 4K finish, the difference is there, and it is there in saving them money.


Arri has been here for ever, and their aggressive campaigns have gotten them results, but RED is now changing their attitude about been islet and let the camera speak for it self, and now also have engage in making sure that people do know the existence and capabilities of their cameras, and also starting to show whom is using their cameras and what for, so things will change and Alexa will loose more ground faster, and Arri is already at work for its replacement to better compete against the RED EPIC... ;)\

But at the end there is also loyalty and some just don't care how much better the RED EPIC is, they just have worked for their entire lives with Arri and they will continue to do so, even with outdated/lesser camera.
 
John semikian said:
beautifully put .. Alexey this goes for you too.. I'm sorry producers in Ukraine know nothing about cameras and only judge it by the price tag.. but that doesn't sound like it's RED's problem.
Click to expand...

Maybe, but if we are talking honestly are you sure RED didn't know in the start of the year that they will decrease the price at the end of the year? We are talking about big bets. I know many small underdogs team and underdog person who want to shoot a real cool projects and they spend all they money for Epic with hope to shoot this projects and across earning some money for these projects and now they see they can't earn money by small rent. RED beats these underdogs guys first of all! Big rental will extricate oneself from this lower price but this underdogs guys now have to think how to earn their money for new projects! And the main things for this guys is to earn 6K for Dragon during next 3-4 month until new low price Epics will not make rent price in 200 USD for day.
Of course we understand the progress can't be stopped, and BlackMAgic, or RED, in 1-2 years will make camera with better characteristics and with small price and it is cool!
If not Red will make top level camera on 20K, Blackmagic make or somebody from China, but just my opinion if mane people bet on Epic this year and RED decrease the price to the end of the year and this year Epic will make not top level camera because of Epic with Dragon I think it would be honest instead of impact of decrease the price at least give them free upgrade for Dragon because all money was investment in Epic and it is hard to find new investment in Epic again after only a few months or maybe at least credit this upgrade.
 
ah i forgot, if you are a real rental company, the camera body doesnt really matter,
its the lenses, support, wireless follow focus etc. i did see canon 7D/Master prime combos
goe out with a steadycam operator for 3000 dollars a day.
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
guys..go shoot something

epic? scarlet? gh2 hack.. gh3 hack..

its all LEGIT..
Click to expand...

Yeah sure, I'll tell my wife we won't make any more money back on our almost $40 000 recent investment and go shoot some squirrels/old people in the park to post on Vimeo.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
My point is not whining. My point is reacting with honesty, and giving honest feedback. I have nothing bad to say about Red. I actually have many positive feelings toward the guys. Few companies I actually feel a connection to that way. Kessler, K5600 - these are guys I deal with and spend time with beyond the scope of normal business - same with Red. It started with their awesome product, but it's also a human appreciation for how they do business. But a real friend is also honest, and realizes that no one is perfect and is willing to go beyond just saying "Rah rah you're great" no matter what.

The final decision has not been made yet. It helps Red to let them know how some of us will be impacted and how we feel about it.

You can be a small house that successfully rents. We have enough gear here to shoot a small fiction piece. Some lights we sub-rent from other rental companies. We offer expertise along with the rental. We do have customers. We also rent our stuff out to our own productions, charging clients reasonable rates on all of it. That too really helps the bottom line.
Click to expand...


Rob,

my post was not directed at you in first persons, but at all of those that here in this thread that like you have been negatively effected by in one way or an other, I do fill your pain, yet I firmly state my points in saying that what ever the reason is for your disappointment, you need to appreciate the state of the Market, and the honesty of how RED has chosen to run their business, yes a Business, which musty adapt also to what the current Economy and cost of operation and manufacturing dictates, and of course there is also the Competition which is catching up to RED more then some of us want to believe it is, and RED is adapting to that end as well, and so must we.

No matter what will be said here, RED's decision has already been made, only a matter of accounting to know exactly what the price decrease will be per given item, but there is no turning back on it, so all we should be is supportive and thankful, for the consideration of RED towards us, and in keeping us informed ahed of time, which is a major show of respect and character to me and a much appreciated one.


Again, understanding that each of us have different financial and business situations, I can only say that at any time a company decides to lower their prices on equipment should only bring positiveness.
 
Soooooo....let me get this straight.

Suddenly RED is the AGENCY for every camera owner here?

Somehow responsible for rental prices and finding/supplying work for its customers.

Customers that have been given beyond fair and realistic deals since this company began.

A company that never touted RED as the supreme rental camera but the camera that made
professional equiptment accessible.
 
dude my 2012 is down HUGE from one TV SHOW. NBC GRIMM who shoots in Portland and gobbles up ALL our state rebate money.

I hate that show with the fiery passion of 10,000 white hot suns. Ive lost well over $250K in business from films I know about that didnt come here ... because of GRIMM which shoots
Alexa and paid for 7 of them to our towns only camera rental company.

Red is facing a NUMBER of competitors unleashing 4K cameras that will further erode your business decision. Prices will be silly cheap and EPIC will be harder to sell/rent.

I cant tell you the number of idiot wannabes stoked beyond belief about the "RED KILLER" they call the Black Magic Toaster. I must have that argument 2 times a week
2-1 crop. (Ill just use cheap 16mm glass) and on and on and on.

The price of the EPIC should not concern your business decision as much as this other stuff coming out. Adapt or die. You seem to be clinging to the 20100 2011 business paradigm where RED
was alone ... they now have company and its only going to get more competitive and red keeping their prices up wont stop the tidal wave they started.
 
Alexey Datsenko said:
Maybe, but if we are talking honestly are you sure RED didn't know in the start of the year that they will decrease the price at the end of the year? We are talking about big bets. I know many small underdogs team and underdog person who want to shoot a real cool projects and they spend all they money for Epic with hope to shoot this projects and across earning some money for these projects and now they see they can't earn money by small rent. RED beats these underdogs guys first of all! Big rental will extricate oneself from this lower price but this underdogs guys now have to think how to earn their money for new projects! And the main things for this guys is to earn 6K for Dragon during next 3-4 month until new low price Epics will not make rent price in 200 USD for day.
Click to expand...

so there you go.. you got 4 months to raise $6k to buy the upgrade you were gonna wanna buy anyways to start earning what you were earning. basically worst case scenario you got a 4 month delay to reach your goal of shooting a real cool project. 4 months is not that long. I'm working on shooting my first feature and my projected shooting date is february of 2014 (if everything goes as planned). point is this news is not that bad considering the upgrade is coming soon and is VERY AFFORDABLE.
 
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