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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

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Rob needs to take that soap box speech to Arri and Sony and China who are also going to devalue his kit rentals
- it's there and real
And Red is adopting.
Thanks again Jim and Jarred and Team Red - cant be more grateful for this timing

Beers and cheers!
 
I was around in the pre Red-one days.

Arri 535 $500K, Sony Cine Alt's was that $350K or 450K?, Sony Hi end Digi Betcam $250K . Sony 900 XDCAM I can't remember $200K ? & everyones moaning about $10K !
 
So what is the stand up thing for Red to do in this situation...

So what is the stand up thing for Red to do in this situation...

I just dropped 100k last week and got my Epic-M brain delivered Friday the day of the announcement. I was supposed to get my BT Scarlet first but for some reason the Epic M got sent to me first, yes...the day of the announcement.

How should someone like me feel? I know it has been stated that people in my situation will get credit but seems like I should have been given a heads up before I dropped the cash. I have already purchased all the accessories I need, why do I want credit towards more?

I do have faith I will be able to work this all out with Red this week but it sure doesnt feel good to drop $100,000 and not have the seller give you a heads up something this drastic was coming.

Its also very clear there are two totally different camps of people using Red since the Scarlet. These camps have very different needs, and hopefully Red isnt going way of Apple and catering to the lowest common denominator at the expense of the higher end.

Ive read every post and its clear who are the ones that love this and who dont. Be careful what you wish for...
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
I can be certain that Sony isn't going to care about our RED rental rates come October 30th. And Nokia already has an 8k camera phone. So technological progress is an inevitable and predictable path. But we are really at an awkward time from a business perspective. What you're going to see if there is a massive price drop is a serious price hike in RED camera rental prices and a lot of people getting out of the rental business. It's going to become like the old DVX rentals back in the day. I remember the DVX going for $450 a day. Scarlet prices, with 1/4 the retail price. Why? Because rental companies knew that the cameras would only last a year. They charged the same price for Arri film cameras, since they knew they could rent them out for decades even if they cost more.

But that's where the awkward bit is going to come in. If the scarlet brain dropped by half... a full scarlet kit would still only be about 15% cheaper. You need lenses, support, rods etc. All of that very quickly overwhelms the price of the brain if you want a nice kit. I would say my brain was about 1/3rd my kit's value. So it's still prohibitively expensive for an individual to buy at $20-$25k but people are going to expect rental prices to drop by half... they won't or the people offering those prices will never make their money back.

The problem as a Scarlet owner I see is that nobody will bother to Rent a Scarlet. In my experience I've seen the exact opposite of Tim. With a full kit a Scarlet isn't that much cheaper. A scarlet is 1/10th the camera at 1/3rd the price. Now it's going to be 1/10th the camera at maybe almost the same price. Why on earth would anyone go with a Scarlet when they're already paying $500+ a day for kit rental with a fluid head, matte box, follow focus etc?

Things look even bleaker for Scarlet when you look at the ambiguous upgrade path now available which has gone from "definitely an upgrade" to "we'll see". If the Dragon upgrade costs more than Epics' we're looking at upwards of $10k to upgrade and only marginally better than an Epic on price. If the Epic drops to RED One pricing ($17,500) + ($6k Dragon) = $23,500. And Scarlet ends up being $10k + $10k Dragon then the Scarlet will be finished. Even if they cut the price of the Scarlet in half $5k + $10k Dragon and you're at $15k/$23.5k 66% of Epic's features but 1/10th of its bandwidth. The camera just doesn't make any sense. If people are stretching to buy a Scarlet on the hopes that they'll pay it back in rentals they would be crazy. Nobody would rent a Scarlet when you can get an Epic in that scenario for an extra $100 or so. And without any hope of rentals even $17k is way too much for 90% of the market.

I've helped friends put together packages for their business needs and the sweet spot most of them are looking for is a ready to shoot package for about $8k. That's the price of a Dragon upgrade alone. No price decrease will make sense to them unless the they could also make $8k in additional rentals. The bottom of the market is going to go to the BMD and GH2s. The top is going to demand 3:1 compression and 60p. There's nowhere left for Scarlet soon IMO if Epic drops into the ~$20k price bracket. Today there is about a $200-$300/day price gap between Epic and Scarlet. That's noticeable to a producer. $100 is not. This is the old 3k for $3k battle again. Red identified this problem once before and killed the product since it's unsustainable.

Jim is right. Everybody is going to own Epics. The question though is whether everyone to bought into the Scarlet bandwagon will jump ship before Dragon. Without a solid upgrade path I think you would have to be out of your mind to upgrade to Dragon in 6+ months if you're a Scarlet customer.

To those complaining about the complaining because "Your Ipod drops in price every year!" There is a huge difference between an ipod and cinema camera. A cinema camera can be rented. An ipod cannot. The question isn't whether people will use a RED camera the question becomes "why not just rent?" My workstation gets used 10 hours a day 5-6+ days a week. And even as a high end machine that works out to a couple dollars a day over 18 months. Compare that to a $25k piece of equipment that even an active production company probably only needs 1-2 days a week on average and it starts getting really hard to justify ownership unless you're a dedicated rental house with back to back rentals.
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Well said. Thank you for very articulately expressing what I have tried to say. I very often enjoy your well written posts.
 
Well I have had a cart filled with $75k for the last 4 days ... I'm betting its merely a coincidence and you probably aren't used to red announcing top down first and then tells their employees :) they re cool like that

Jim and Jarred and Brent and Graeme and Rob and Kelly and and and and all go above and beyond
making stuff right
But you are better served taking your unhappiness thru PM and give them a chance to remedy before flaming

This approach has worked flawlessly every time for me. Good luck - I too trust you will be more than taken care of
 
Jarred Land said:
You are probably correct.. at least that is what the rental companies keep telling us.

Remember when we came on the scene there was no Alexa.

Apart from Broadcast cameras, There was not much of anything capable other than $200,000 cameras on their shelves. Quickly our little $17,500 R1 camera started to shoot some pretty big movies.. getting chosen over some very expensive alternatives. It had nothing to do with the cost of the camera... it had to do with the quality of the image. Rental companies liked it because it was cheap to get into and it still played along with all their lenses and support equipment that they make the real money off of.

We always have your best interest in mind.. really. Sometimes we take alot of flack for that.. because its not always what everyone else is doing. We made a camera that shot images that would stand up for years to come... because it was so obvious to see ( at least to us ) that 1080p wasn't enough. Finally, just a few weeks ago the new 4K Consumer standard was set. This consumer standard dictates everything all of us here do, if we like it or not. The new Spec that started specifically calls out a requirement that no upscaling is allowed. Its not a good idea to shoot in 1080p anymore.... even if you can still get away with it.

Making a 1080p camera is incredible easy.. we could of done it very quickly and made a ton of money. But I wouldn't of shot it... neither would Jim. Hell.. we tried that with the 3K Scarlet remember.. we got all the way up to right before shipping.. shot with it one day and realized that even 3K wasn't enough... and pulled the plug. Because it wasn't good enough. Not for us.. not for you.

We are passionate about making the best images we possibly can.. That's our job. We make it, put as low of a price tag as humanly possible on it, and then hand it over to you. You then go and find a way to make money with it. That's your job.

But allas.. these conversations get tiring. It seems like this always happens when we try to be generous.

We recieved shit from some people over our upgrade program that gave everyone full price trade ins on their cameras.. still can't believe that one.

Some people that only ended up paying 10k for their Epic through that trade in program inevitably now will bitch that something is going to happen to the rental rates they were getting for the last year based on a 35k camera.

Give people a mountain of gold and they will complain about needing to climb it. That's just the way it is I guess.
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I have tremendous respect for your passion. But we just paid 27500 for our brain very recently, many others paid 34500 - and lots more for other add-ons. We only got it in May. Maybe it's my fault because I'm not whatever it is some here feel I should be, but 6 months is not a lot of time to amortize something. Whatever the reasons for this situation, it's just not. It's going to hurt us. I charge per day as a DP - just for my time - I will survive, but for others here it will be totally devastating if things are too drastic.

Please try to remember that when you make your final call.

Alexa, Epic and F65 are not really in direct competition with F3s and F5s or even really Scarlets. Clients (at least mine) don't see it that way, and technically they are not the same league, but more importantly in practical business terms perceptually they are not in the same league.

If I showed up with that weird Chinese camera, people would laugh. It's like saying Mercedes should be cheaper because Hyundai has come out with a new "luxury" model. It doesn't matter. Mercedes is still Mercedes and Epic is still Epic.

On a $50 000 a day shoot, people just want the best, at some level they WANT to pay a little extra for it.
 
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Tim Whitcomb said:
Well I have had a cart filled with $75k for the last 4 days ... I'm betting its merely a coincidence and you probably aren't used to red announcing top down first and then tells their employees :) they re cool like that

Jim and Jarred and Brent and Graeme and Rob and Kelly and and and and all go above and beyond
making stuff right
But you are better served taking your unhappiness thru PM and give them a chance to remedy before flaming

This approach has worked flawlessly every time for me. Good luck - I too trust you will be more than taken care of
Click to expand...

Not flaming at all, Im stating a concern and getting involved with the community. I think I have a unique perspective on this considering when I bought in. Like I said, I have faith they will take care of me next week and all will be good.
 
Jarred Land said:
Dave thanks.. And thanks to everyone else that is being supportive.
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You're very welcome and thank u... Drop that price as low as you can baby.. Oh and please let that Epic X still be available till at least late next year
 
Jim, Jarred: in sight of all the dispute going on I want to be at least one of the voices to thank you for your decision!

The fact you are doing this assures me once more, that it was a good decision to invest in RED. My belief in the company and especially you guys, is one of the points why I decided to go RED!
I believe that you will always try to push the boundaries, keep our equipment as up-to-date as possible and enable us to shoot the possibly most amazing pictures you can get, while making it affordable.
The price point you set with the R1, and everything to follow, changed the industry - in my eyes for the better. A lot of us - and probably most of us - wouldn't be here if a RED camera would cost $ 200K.
We all win. The fact that you are continuing to stay true to your credo only makes me feel right about my decision. Even if it sometimes stings a little if the time span between changes is short.

I want RED to stay how I got to know and love it: true, honest and with both eyes open for the best of the customer, while staying strong enough to last!

Rental in my eyes is mainly "suffering" because a lot of owners can now rent out too and because some dump the prices. EPIC has to compete with SCARLET packages, SCARLET has to compete with 5D/7D packages...
But if you need a whole kit from a big rental house, there's no huge difference. Every camera owner knows: bodies change, lenses stay: invest in lenses.
Lens and gear dictate the price. The rental industry has to change the perspective a bit as the manufacturing industry had to, too. Bodies will be cheaper and probably not be the thing that will make the money in the future.
And that already started with the R1 because it was somewhat as affordable to own than to rent. Maybe the realisation that this process is already in place takes some people by surprise.
See it this way: you can get more bodies to rent out! hehehe

Call me a fanboy, I don't care. Price drops sting (media, the scarlet deal, new cameras from other manufacturers) but only if you didn't make money with your camera. And we all know: gear will someday be outdated.
So go and make it work for you today!

Once again: thank you for turning your higher profit margin out to the customer.
 
Mike Garrick said:
I was around in the pre Red-one days.

Arri 535 $500K, Sony Cine Alt's was that $350K or 450K?, Sony Hi end Digi Betcam $250K . Sony 900 XDCAM I can't remember $200K ? & everyones moaning about $10K !
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Sony 2/3 inch cine altas, digi beta cams and xdcams were never as high as the prices you quote.
 
@ Steve mmm...you could be right time has fogged prices.

But then again those prices where in Aussie dollars I've forgotten the exchange rate in the "naughties" but it sure wasn't 1 Aus = 1 US. I think 60cent = 1 US.
 
Any chance of a Scarlet to Epic brain ( new price ) trade-in deal from RED? ;-)

All the best

Peter
 
Jarred Land said:
Hell.. we tried that with the 3K Scarlet remember.. we got all the way up to right before shipping.. shot with it one day and realized that even 3K wasn't enough... and pulled the plug. Because it wasn't good enough. Not for us.. not for you.
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When it was announced that there will be no Scarlet 3K, I was bit disappointed, but thought these guys must know what they are doing (although Jim always says they don't ;-) ). As things stand now, the justification of the decision is clear. The technical progress is pretty fast.

Those of us who jumped into Red One train before the camera even existed were lucky, because we got into our hands a tool that whose quality/cost ratio was years ahead anything else in the market.

But things are now different, the Go Pro 4K camera is a clear sign of this. Or, not sure how well it is known in Northern America, the Nokia N8 *phone* with the 8K, that is 40+ Mpixel camera --the one Gavin referred to-- creates amazing still images. As it is a phone which costs some hundreds of euros, while shooting there are some limitations in controlling the camera settings, but nevertheless, the camera (of the phone) reveals what is possible already today.

In this sense the days of luxury having a RED camera years ahead in quality of anything in the same price range are running out, and the move to lower the prices sounds like a very sensible move if RED Digital Cinema wants to maintain its position in the competition. Taking into account what Jim has said for a long time about HD , 2K, or of 3K, all these actions are very consistent.

Since RED has forced the luke warm waters into motion and heat, my cultivated (?) guess today is, sooner or later there will be quite many cameras in the same price range as Epic, and then the competition will be even more about quality: Those will manage who are able to manufacture cameras with best quality.

Eventually Epic will be replaced with something better from RED and perhaps/likely something which is also even more affordable. This will mean more people will be able to own professional tools, and making arts become more democratic. Guess the best way to prepare for that is to keep the camera running as much as possible to hone the skill to tell stories with images.
 
Lauri Kettunen said:
...

But things are now different, the Go Pro 4K camera is a clear sign of this. [...]

In this sense the days of luxury having a RED camera years ahead in quality of anything in the same price range are running out, and the move to lower the prices sounds like a very sensible move if RED Digital Cinema wants to maintain its position in the competition. Taking into account what Jim has said for a long time about HD , 2K, or of 3K, all these actions are very consistent.

Since RED has forced the luke warm waters into motion and heat, my cultivated (?) guess today is, sooner or later there will be quite many cameras in the same price range as Epic, and then the competition will be even more about quality: Those will manage who are able to manufacture cameras with best quality.

Eventually Epic will be replaced with something better from RED and perhaps/likely something which is also even more affordable. This will mean more people will be able to own professional tools, and making arts become more democratic. Guess the best way to prepare for that is to keep the camera running as much as possible to hone the skill to tell stories with images.
Click to expand...

I mostly agree, but will sharpen the argument thusly: most of RED's competition has grown accustomed to market-defining power. For too many years, they have used that power to extract rents from a program of planned obsolescence. RED prepared for battle with an entirely new game plan, which was to make a fully modular system so that innovation could happen *everywhere* and could happen *rapidly*. Building modular components is fundamentally more difficult that building components that will only ever have one use, because the former have interfaces that must be defined, validated, and made bullet-proof. But now RED is in a brilliant competitive position, because their economics have essentially reached parity with the industry, and they can compete on the basis of "making obsolescence obsolete". Specifically, they can afford to innovate at will, everywhere, and deliver those innovations incrementally to customers that need things RIGHT NOW. The competition is fundamentally stuck in a monolithic model, both architecturally and from a positioning point of view. I look forward to seeing just how drastically RED can redefine the economics of hi-res, RAW imaging and workflows. And I still hope we see more great things available on the other great modular platform: Linux!
 
Jannard, we are for one very happy about the price reduction and the way you are telling it here on the forums. It will make it possible to buy even more Red Epics, hehe.
Just a quick one, is it still 50k purchace price to get the Dragon sensor included? I wouldn't want to miss it for the world :)

Best!
/Andreas
 
Price drops are a beautiful thing - but only when your on the opposite side of them.

As a guy who just bought a BT Scarlet, I'm pretty certain that I won't feel too foolish about my recent purchase... although depending on how deep the discount is, I may end up wishing I had waited until after November 1st. Comme ci, comme ca.

Apart from all that - congratulations are due to RED for increasing productivity and lowering costs. Times do change, and really, this can only be a good thing.
 
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