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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

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This is just my opinion but I have been saying this for a number of years.
The market has changed any every company is looking at it's very survival in the current climate.

I think the recent 7K sale of Red Scarlets (and the demand for them) has shown Red that sales are there, but it's all about
price in the current climate
I have been saying this long before Blackmagic announced their camera, but IMO the key to survival is mass adoption of your product
and workflow. Pricing is a large part of this but the remainder is kit cost and workflow.

I still feel the next biggest move Red could make would be to provide the ProRes / DNxHD and Mini Audio Module ASAP (before the end of the year)
and if possible reduce their accessories cost.

Finally this is going to be controversial but adding a Cineform option to any Pro Res / DNXD module may seem absurd to even mention,
but please hear me out, it's only a matter of time before Blackmagic or some other manufacturer does the same.
The fact that you can edit and conform in one visually lossless codec and use it throughout the entire editing FX and Post Workflow
is huge and will drive future developments.

The next few years will be all be about survival, over time things that seemed absurd may start to make sense, the key will be whether
companies can reassess their situation quicker than the competition and make the necessary changes.

My 2 Cents
 
Jim,

You and Jarred have always taken care of me. I love my camera. I still remember the great discount you gave me during epic -x. It is important that red be successful, I support whatever decision you all need to make. i do hope to see some accessory discounts though:)

Jay
 
Jarred / Jim,

Thanks again for you and Jim being so transparent. The price drop of the EPIC (what ever it turns out to be), can only be a good think for the world of 4K acquisition. As a stage 4 EPIC buyer, I've only had my EPIC for about 9 months, I haven't recouped that purchase cost, but thats not the point.I didn't buy an EPIC to get pure rental costs. I bought it for my own productions and if I can make a bit of money along the way, great. I am working, I am generating some money and I am very, very, happy with what the EPIC offers.

Here in the UK, I already find the rental market... challenging. But I think that's right across the globe. Will this impact rental, quite possibly, but as the economy hasn't totally recovered, I think those that do have that extra cash will will make the jump to EPIC and quite rightly too.

If we are renting, we need to make sure we are offering the service, continue the education of our clients that are still stuck in this 1080 world and demonstrate that providing their content doesn't go out of date, their end product will be forward protected for a number of years to come. I am winning business from clients when I explain that and they totally get on board.

It's not like my EPIC is suddenly out of date after only 9 months. Its so current, its unbelievable. Dragon will make it even more competitive again, that will help push up the rental costs a little and help some people down the line. $6k for an upgrade to the current camera is so generous, I sometimes think you guys need you head examining (heh...heh...heh...). You guys are so generous, and I for one am very, very grateful.

I now have to step up my game and increase my worth if lower rental costs come, and that now means stepping up the DIT, onset post production and educating my clients.

Thanks again to the entire RED team for everything you guys continue to do.

Steve
 
I went up for a ride with you guys 4 years ago and haven't had a complain at all. I bet on RED, as Jarred said on a post, for the image quality (not only resolution, but feeling) of the RED ONE. When I saw the price I couldn't believe it. Then it came Stage 2. Would never had the EPIC (for economic reasons) if it wasn't for that generous offer. I'll never forget that, never.

So now the prices get low? Of course. I'm glad for all those people who will be able to own an EPIC for a fair price. I certainly paid less and I have 2 terrific cameras now.

Keep on rocking, guys! And never change this way of doing things. That's almost what I love the most from RED (your cameras go first, sorry! :P).
 
BTW. Nobody ever complained that the accessory price increase that was announced actually didn't happen on some items ;)
Side Handle, 5" Touch and Redmote stayed at their old price. (Or maybe they never got out of backorder heheheh!)

Jarred Land said:
...

Accessories :

OOBO = WHEN OUT OF BACK ORDER

Current: DSMC Side Handle is $950. OOBO 1: $1200

Current: RED Touch LCD 5" is $1600. OOBO 1: $1950

Current: REDmote is $550. OOBO 1: $750

Current: Pro I/O Module is $2950. OOBO 1: $3750

Current: Pro Battery Module (Dual) is $1250. OOBO 1: $1450
Click to expand...
 
RayFrisby said:
This is just my opinion but I have been saying this for a number of years.
The market has changed any every company is looking at it's very survival in the current climate.

I think the recent 7K sale of Red Scarlets (and the demand for them) has shown Red that sales are there, but it's all about
price in the current climate
I have been saying this long before Blackmagic announced their camera, but IMO the key to survival is mass adoption of your product
and workflow. Pricing is a large part of this but the remainder is kit cost and workflow.

I still feel the next biggest move Red could make would be to provide the ProRes / DNxHD and Mini Audio Module ASAP (before the end of the year)
and if possible reduce their accessories cost.

Finally this is going to be controversial but adding a Cineform option to any Pro Res / DNXD module may seem absurd to even mention,
but please hear me out, it's only a matter of time before Blackmagic or some other manufacturer does the same.
The fact that you can edit and conform in one visually lossless codec and use it throughout the entire editing FX and Post Workflow
is huge and will drive future developments.

The next few years will be all be about survival, over time things that seemed absurd may start to make sense, the key will be whether
companies can reassess their situation quicker than the competition and make the necessary changes.

My 2 Cents
Click to expand...

agree on all points.
 
All this talk about Epic rentals ignores what we see as a prime value in the RED business model to us. We look upon brains as nearly disposable electronics with a shelf life of only a few years, any upgrades are simply a bonus. What is attractive is the RED system of modules that will retain value for many years. Offer us Scarlet at the recent BT price and we are in, that will take this year's budget, but then next year we will spend our budget on on a brain upgrade. We need the lower light and higher DR of Dragon for our docs. Until then we can shoot great films with an intermediate solution that actually builds value for our long term goals.

We wish we had ordered a BT Scarlet, not because that is the ulitmate solution for us, but because it was a way to economically acquire the bits and pieces that we could apply to future RED brains.

Once in the RED ecosystem few will leave, too much transferable value would be lost, especially for owner operators that are becoming the norm rather tha rentals.
 
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It seems to me that those who rent their Epics and Scarlets should be directing their displeasure at the real causes of their rental prices coming down. In my view, those causes will be the rash of 4k camera releases from other companies. I'm thinking that the majority who rent aren't suddenly going to buy an Epic because the price has come down. Many of them rent because it's one less thing to worry about after the shoot is done. And those who will purchase for the right price will just buy another brand if the Epic price doesn't come down.

In my estimation, the more people using RED cameras for whatever reason, the more buzz is created and the more in demand the RED products become. Maybe the rental rate comes down a bit, but also, maybe the camera stays rented more days. It's hard to predict the future but this is just one possible outcome.
 
Elsie N said:
It seems to me that those who rent their Epics and Scarlets should be directing their displeasure at the real causes of their rental prices coming down. In my view, those causes will be the rash of 4k camera releases from other companies. I'm thinking that the majority who rent aren't suddenly going to buy an Epic because the price has come down. Many of them rent because it's one less thing to worry about after the shoot is done. And those who will purchase for the right price will just buy another brand if the Epic price doesn't come down.

In my estimation, the more people using RED cameras for whatever reason, the more buzz is created and the more in demand the RED products become. Maybe the rental rate comes down a bit, but also, maybe the camera stays rented more days. It's hard to predict the future but this is just one possible outcome.
Click to expand...

Was talking to someone at GoPro about their 4k Cineform RAW prototype, something that actually could compete with RED's compressed RedCode.
 
I have the feeling the price decrease will be reasonable, and not decimate us. Here's hoping.
 
............So. We could easily pretend and invent a new model to justify a lower price with higher performance. You are too smart for that. So are we. Instead... we will just lower the price of EPIC.

Jim[/QUOTE]

I appreciate this. This is a wonderful statement. For ages this was the practice of many so called BIG companies. To tell this openly one needs lots of guts. RED only has it.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
Red itself was founded on the principle of going against group think
Click to expand...
Exactly why self-protectionism must not be welcome (nor tolerated) regarding RED price policy. When I started to see those guys on cinematography.com forums to bash RED it was immediately easy to realize the (dis)honest scope behind the intention: to try to stop the rebellion. RED should never be an elitist* supplier/brand. This is to kill the company in the long run.

* even 'cause the high-end are the first ones to abandon the ship when business doesn't hold the bill.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
I have the feeling the price decrease will be reasonable, and not decimate us. Here's hoping.
Click to expand...
Us? Who is 'us' ? ;-)

This reminds me something considered illegal under certain circumstances in a few countries lately... that's the trend, I guess : ) group lobbying.

The past is past only when there's future out of the door. Future only exists if we've prepped it before. Trying to export the (only) past (we thought to build) into another future (for sure) we all guess... it is just a suicide to come.
 
I think it's great that RED are following this route rather than obsoleting the cameras we own. Other manufacturers make a virtue of obsolescence and give you zero-warning. Not that you could do much with a warning about becoming the owner of last years hot whatever, when everyone has the same information.


My only concern is the news that Dragon is a 'maybe' for Scarlet at this time, but I'll check that concern until the facts appear. My hope is that, if that 'maybe' becomes a 'maybe not', RED will continue to set themselves apart from other companies and find a way for Scarlet-X owners to join the party.
 
....last year at this time of year, you couldn't buy an Epic X as a first time customer - now you lower the prices? I don't get it... they Mysterium-sensored Epic's will fall in value anyway as soon if you release the Dragonsensor...you don't have turn the price-screw - time does! Headshaking....

Christian
 
Jarred Land said:
We don't know if Scarlet can handle the dragon till the new ASICs come out of the oven... which is still months away.
Click to expand...

Ouch.
What a bummer would be. I really hope you'll find the way to improve Scarlet letting her in his proper, lighter category. I got that the Dragon path would be more costly for Scarlet, but I imagine you're going to provide an upgrade path that continue to reflect similar relative differences between you're 2 cameras.
Otherwise Scarlet owners would be left off the obsolescence obsolete motto. Isn't it?
 
So far I've yet to see anyone state what seems to be one of the obvious motivations, although Jarred alluded to it in vague terms: By reducing the price of Epic it's meant to drive up new Epic sales and therefore get that awesome team they've built busy with some solid, sustained full-time work. My guess is Red is proud of their manufacturing division and now that it's a mature, well-oiled machine they'd like to keep those folks employed.

That in and of itself is honourable.

Do I like the price going down? As long as there aren't any more pretenders who are buying simply because they can...some of these people did so and were at the root of a lot of misinformation about Red and the cameras. Not bothering to read the manual or actually searching threads to solve potential issues/work arounds, not staying on top of beta releases...just renting themselves and the camera out but no knowledge of how to troubleshoot in order to give the best possible experience for the end user. Knowledge is power. I sincerely hope people read and take greater ownership in the philosophy they're buying into. Maybe Reducation classes should be mandatory for any new buyer!
 
Shaffy Singh said:
Hi Jannard/Jarred

Is there going to be price change in scarlet brain ?

If there is, what about the people who received their scarlet in the last 30 days? According to Jannard's post "If you bought an EPIC in the past 30 days... we will offer a credit towards accessories. That amount will be posted along with the new EPIC pricing. Nov. 1st is when it happens."

I received my scarlet on 10th of Oct. if scarlet prices goes down will I be eligible for credit towards accessories ?

ALSO I have not even turned on my scarlet is there any way I can return that and pay the difference to get EPIC X on new price?
Click to expand...

Waiting for some response :S
 
Mondo Ghulam said:
I think it's great that RED are following this route rather than obsoleting the cameras we own. Other manufacturers make a virtue of obsolescence and give you zero-warning.
Click to expand...
Indeed. I am wondering what Rob would have to post in case RED would launch a new camera between Scarlet and EPIC in order to beat the competition. Yes, because there's world outside reduser... And to do nothing would already be a failure itself.
 
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