Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

[Ketch Rossi]

Not to be in any way a slap in the face to some of my good friends and fellow REDUSER here, but a check with reality... And a serious look at what RED is doing for us, not to us, and how is still the BEST company in this industry, not only for their products but for how they conduct business and their transparency with us.


Let me voice my opinion here on the above...


RED

RED could have simply just care less of informing all of us on what they are going to do with prices, Canon, Sony, Arri... they sure don't announce anything about anything, they just do it, and all of a sudden BOOM, your camera is now OBSOLETE, not that it lost value, IT is OBSOLETE, meaning that a WAY better camera, for the same price or much less has just came out and it has OBSOLETE yours, in many cases the new camera is a much cheaper camera meant for the prosumer, yet it does almost as well as the one for PRO that you paid great deal of money for, the new trend with this is even worst, were now companies are actually putting out anew model that obsoletes the other in such a short sub-session that is no longer funny.

Yet, not every one needs to have always the litist, not unless you can afford to, having the latest in technology it is a luxury and for very few a necessity, as in current updates of this companies, this updates are a far cry form giving technological advancements to were you absolutely need to have it vs. the one you bought of the prior generation, so if you can't afford it continue to use the one you bought already till it pays off with work NOT RENTAL* (see below on this).


RENTAL

RENTAl is not a game, it is a SERIOUS Business, and it requires the a substantial amount of money to open a RENATL company, I almost went in to it, just because upset of how some companies do it, and I had several investors that wonted to go in with me, and that investment was in the MILLIONS, buying a camera kit, be it a RED ONE, or SCARLET or EPIC, or any other camera for that matter, does NOT in the most ABSOLUTE of ways make you a RENTAL company.

No Movie production of any kind will come to you and rent your camera, unless you have something that absolutely NO Rental company has, WHY? Because Rental companies give packages, which include EVERYTHING they need ot shoot their Movies and projects, they have Insurance, no, not like yours, they have serious Insurance, and most importantly they have IMMEDIATE assistance and camera replacement, you don't.

JUst because RED is the first company to bring aInexpensive Digital Cinema Capable camera, which give many, many , many the possibility to buy them, this means that now thousands had to go in to Rentals, yet many did, and did so, without a Business Plan, did so without the knowledge of what a Rental company really is, and many did so without even knowing the camera and the Industry further crippling their chances of making any money with their cameras.

While some instead bought this cameras and worked with this cameras were they were the operator, the DP, the Producer, or occupying what ever position in an environment they already knew well, and give them a sure chance of making a bit of extra money in having their own gear, instead of needing to rent it themselves.



I mena no disrespect to any one, just don't be upset at RED, the market, as it has a life of its own and if you made the wrong business decisions is on you, not on RED.


I also have purchased EPIC-M cameras, and paid not full price but a PREMIUM do to the added cost at the time, and now I could care less of how much slash in price the EPIC M gets, because I have and continue to work with the camera, and I didn't buy it thinking on how much I was going to loose in selling it, neither I bought it to Rent, I don't RENT, why? Because I am not a Rental company, I am an owner user, very different, and when I made the investment I made it because I know I could, when times got tough, I sold what ever I needed to sale, even the cameras them selves, that is life, but it was always on me not on RED.

I have nothing but a HUGE THANK YOU to say to RED, and will continue to be their LOYAL customer, till they otherwise do something to no longer make be want to be ,and that will not happen just because they lowered praises, but it would only happen if they start building crappy cameras, or give me bad customer service.


We really need to step down for a moment, and ABSOLUTELY STOP whinnying about...

 

[Alexey Datsenko]

For consumers the low price is a big win of course and it is revolution from RED again but for rental it is a big impact on their business because it have been spending a lot of money in Epic this year and now these money would not get back.

Big rentals of course extricate oneself from this lower price but for small team or person who rent camera to get money for new shooting projects it is a big impact. As always the small guys get impact in the first turn.

1. Alexa will win from the low price for Epic. For rental the lower price for Epic means that Alexa will be the top camera for rental. Because big production houses will be thinking if Alexa coast 70K and Epic for example 25K it is means Alexa much better then Epic. Because the high price means high quality and the low price means the low quality. New Mersedes can't be cost 25K as Huandai. If now Alexa and Epic are on the same level so in a few months Epic will be at the middle level and Alexa on the top for rental. The main question which asking on the shooting area when Epic is renting is How much this camera cost. Top level is the top price. Production houses would not never rent and shoot the camera for 5K if there is camera for rent for 70K. They always would demand the top level.

2.So the the decrease price for rental who have bough Epic for rental means a big impact on their business, profit minus 60-70% because price for rental will fall from 700-800 USD for day to 250-300 plus. Nobody would pay 800 USD for camera which costs 25K plus the low price is the a lot of Epics. So most Epic owners who bought Epic this year will not get back their money investment in Epic.

3. The main hope to hold Epic on the top level at the rental market is a Dragon. But it is again new investments after new which have being made only a few month ago in the top camera and many who spend all money for Epic just haven't new money for new investment for new Epic again.

4. I think would be good if RED would do something for these people who bet on Epic this year and now calculate how much money they will lost. Maybe free upgrading for Dragon or something else. of course id they knew that in a year the price for Epic will fall they would not make this investments in Epic and would be waiting for a year. So I think it would be honest to make Dragon upgrade free for these people who make bet on Epic and now lost a much more money then 6K. And only upgrading for Dragon will allow hold Epic on the Alexa level for rental who would not able to upgrade for Dragon would rent their Epics for 100-150 USD.

5. But strategical the main things is how RED will be able to make new upgrading which will make Epic a top level camera and not making new camera. if RED will make next year not upgrade but new camera with much better characteristics for the lower price it will be the end of the Epic for Epic owners.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

And all you folks who have made money with your RED cameras, cough up some additional cash to RED. Come on, you know who you are. We can't have you guys making excess profits without Jim getting his fair share. :laugh:

 

[John semikian]

Sounds like every day here in Hollywood - but add all camera types to the list including film(although less film these days)

completely agree with you Dan.

Rob it doesn't take a NO-Budget production in hollywood to completely screw up a shoot. you're argument is absolutely off base. you got all kinds of rich kids running around here shooting crap on whatever they want. you just sound like you're not gonna get over the eventual and inevitable price drop. is this the first time you buy a camera or something? you do understand that if technology prices didn't drop over time you probably would've never been able to afford a camera that can shoot 5k in the first place. I don't feel bad for you, and it does sting a little to see the price drop but you are making it sound like the end of the world or something. It's inevitable. and in this day and age with more camera companies trying to develop the next great chip or camera, it (price drops) happen a little bit faster then it used to. just be grateful that you own a product from a company that allows you a path to upgrade to the next great thing instead of having to throw that camera in the closet and trying to figure out a way to raise another heap of money to buy the next great thing.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

For consumers the low price is a big win of course and it is revolution but for rental it is a big impact on their business.

1. Alexa will win from the low price for Epic. For rental the lower price for Epic means that Alexa will be the top camera for rental. Because big production houses will be thinking if Alexa coast 70K and Epic for example 25K it is means Alexa much better then Epic. Because the high price means high quality and the low price means the low quality. New Mersedes can't be cost 25K as Huandai. If now Alexa and Epic are on the same level so in a few months Epic will be at the middle level and Alexa on the top for rental. The main question which asking on the shooting area when Epic is renting is How much this camera cost. Top level is the top price. Production houses would not never rent and shoot the camera for 5K if there is camera for rent for 70K. They always would demand the top level.

Sorry, but I need to respectfully yet strongly disagree with you here.


Only Stupid companies and very Stupid Producers would think like that, and in the enow 6 events i which I brought the EPIC against the Alexa in Productions tests, the Alexa has lost their business against the Superiority of the EPIC, and only in one case the Alexa won, and the reason was because the Rental company had 28 of them and give them the Alexa in a package deal far cheaper that if they would have gone with EPIC, which btw, they didn't have.

On the other hand, many go with the Canon 5D instead of the Epic, yet the 5D is but a fraction the cost... I guess there is a bite for every one after all...

 

[Zach Swena]

Stop whining!!!

I think everyone gets the point that some people who bought an Epic recently for the purpose of renting will get hurt if they based their business model off of sustained levels and price fixing. Red is still in the process of transforming the digital image capture industry, and this is part of the process. They are not here to squeeze the life out of the industry by artificially high prices. Image capture is now part of the realm of digital electronics, if the technology is there to decrease price while keeping the same quality, or even improving, why shouldn't they move ahead? Any business model involving electronic equipment should have a 1-2 year ROI or less. When unforeseen circumstances come about, that can then stretch to 3-4 years and still be a viable business, not allowing for such a buffer is foolish. I bet RED will still have a slightly higher profit margin after the price cut, then when they first went in to production. At any rate, they need to keep their factory busy, and probably need to make room at the high end of the product line for some more goodies.

Ketch Rossi stated it pretty well. What I would add would be, if you are unhappy, I don't think you fully understand exactly what RED is all about.

 

[Adam Johnson]

As a Nov. 3rd Scarlet owner the ONLY thing in this thread that currently worries me is Scarlet not being able to work with Dragon.

All along it was said that Scarlet would be upgradeable to Dragon. So, any kind of doubts on whether or not Scarlet will be able to handle Dragon worries me....but I totally love the transparency. No other company does that!

However, as long as there is some viable way to upgrade from Scarlet...whether it be coring out the insides & moving around/ upgrading boards to handle Dragon OR very generously providing some type of upgrade path for us early Scarlet adopters to Epic-X or Epic Dragon....I will ultimately be happy with that.

Simply put, I TRUST RED. They have proven time and time again that the customer comes first. That is why without hesitation, I ordered my Scarlet on Nov. 3rd at the strike of 7pm!

We don't know if Scarlet can handle the dragon till the new ASICs come out of the oven... which is still months away.

 

[Tom Wardrop]

Can I be one to say "Screw the rental companies". Since when was RED's goal to create rentable cameras. Never. They're making cameras that people can buy and own. You shouldn't have to rent a camera, that's the whole idea. And since when did anyone but a fool judge the quality of a product based solely on its price, especially one as subjective as a video camera. RED has always been about getting quality camera's into the hands of as many people as possible. Ironically, RED is about taking the camera out of the equation, so content creators can focus on the end goal. They're not about exclusivity and status, and I think this thread proves that.

 

[Paul Ellington]

Things change, RED being honest about how it's changing should make you happy.

- Paul

 

[CocoBermudez]

As a Nov. 3rd Scarlet owner the ONLY thing in this thread that currently worries me is Scarlet not being able to work with Dragon.

All along it was said that Scarlet would be upgradeable to Dragon. So, any kind of doubts on whether or not Scarlet will be able to handle Dragon worries me....but I totally love the transparency. No other company does that!

However, as long as there is some viable way to upgrade from Scarlet...whether it be coring out the insides & moving around/ upgrading boards to handle Dragon OR very generously providing some type of upgrade path for us early Scarlet adopters to Epic-X or Epic Dragon....I will ultimately be happy with that.

Simply put, I TRUST RED. They have proven time and time again that the customer comes first. That is why without hesitation, I ordered my Scarlet on Nov. 3rd at the strike of 7pm!

I trust that RED will do the right thing...they always do...their good will and generosity towards their customer base is beyond gracious...

 

[Alexey Datsenko]

Sorry, but I need to respectfully yet strongly disagree with you here.


Only Stupid companies and very Stupid Producers would think like that, and in the enow 6 events i which I brought the EPIC against the Alexa in Productions tests, the Alexa has lost their business against the Superiority of the EPIC, and only in one case the Alexa won, and the reason was because the Rental company had 28 of them and give them the Alexa in a package deal far cheaper that if they would have gone with EPIC, which btw, they didn't have.

On the other hand, many go with the Canon 5D instead of the Epic, yet the 5D is but a fraction the cost... I guess there is a bite for every one after all...

Ketch, every time on the shooting area the most asking question i heard every time is how much this Epic cost, not how many stops, not RAW, but how much is it, ant when producer is calling he asking the same how Epic is cool and how much is it, and when producer finding the camera he call to Alexa and know that it is 1500 usd for day then he call to Scarlet it is 200 usd day then he call to Epic it is 700-800 usd for day and he want to be sure that Epic it is the same level as Alexa but for less money and he asked: How cool is it in comparison with Alexa? And when he hear it is the same level he take Epic, even when he know that Scarlet can do everything the same as Epic for their shooting he take Epic because Scarlet for 200 usd can't be the good camera. I was at many shooting where the same things can be shoot at Scarlet but producers can't understand how Scarlet for 200 usd can do the same as Epic for 800 usd and he take Epic. So price is very important indicator of quality. And actually I have not meet producer who know the details about camera, they thinking only in money. Expensive camera is good, unexpensive camera it is risk. But it is just changing of thinking.

I think it is needs to go for production with Epic not for rental!

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

getting into the 600 with a good clique that can provide consistent work is like trying to get signed onto a record label. It's really hard, I know there's allot of older AC who are burnt from the industry so it's making wave for all the younger folk like me.
[/I]

yo.. local 600 DIT here..
600 doesnt do SHIT for you... thats not where the jobs come from.. they just, lets be honest, take my money.. and provide me my healthcare (although i believe i was getting benefits before the union, as i was still in the payroll systems...

anyways.. long story short.. 600 is not like a record deal.. its a labor union.. you gotta get your own jobs

 

[John semikian]

As a Nov. 3rd Scarlet owner the ONLY thing in this thread that currently worries me is Scarlet not being able to work with Dragon.

All along it was said that Scarlet would be upgradeable to Dragon. So, any kind of doubts on whether or not Scarlet will be able to handle Dragon worries me....but I totally love the transparency. No other company does that!

However, as long as there is some viable way to upgrade from Scarlet...whether it be coring out the insides & moving around/ upgrading boards to handle Dragon OR very generously providing some type of upgrade path for us early Scarlet adopters to Epic-X or Epic Dragon....I will ultimately be happy with that.

yeah im curious about this too... what happens to Scarlet? does it become obsolete? are they gonna have to take trade ins to Epics? very curious what happens here. does Scarlett eventually (like 2014) become the epic at that $9.5k (brain only price point) (I wouldn't mind this at all as long as current Scarlett users can upgrade to Epic X for a reasonable price and then for another $6k to Dragon).

I'm not sure even RED has made any solid decisions on this yet, but I really do hope that there is some path to get Scarlet owners up to Dragon chips while also having a great camera in there line up for under $10k (obviously not dragon)

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Some of the comments here boggle my mind. Do folks get upset at Apple if they lower the price of a MacBook Pro or introduce a new, more capable model at the same price as the old one? It's a tool. Some tools are better leased or rented because it is financially unfeasible to own them. Others it is better buying and owning because the numbers work in that direction. Almost every business has a different set of circumstances so their decision is an individual one and should take as many variables into consideration as possible. No one should assume that a supplier of capital equipment will never change their offering or their pricing. To think so is naive. There is also a lot of hand wringing as if the day after the announcement of a new price for Epic , the entire market will react all at once and everything will change in an instant. Take a deep breath and work with the circumstance that arrive. Of all companies from which you might assume stasis, RED is a poor choice.

You don't expect to amortize your macbook by renting it out by the day, and it costs far less than an Epic kit.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Rob, if a rental house (or someone that bought a Epic as an investment) that purely rents out a camera doesn't get their money back within a short period of time, then the business plan must have a mistake somewhere. Marketing... Promotions... Return customer appreciation incentives... something isn't right (unless they bought the epic last month and with the price drop now, feel kind of hurt by the move).

Return on Investment wise, Granted that the time between the RED ONE and any other 4k camera took a few years before a competitor came close. Back then I'm sure the market were skeptical of using Red cause the rest of the workflow...editing 4k on a computer in 2008 must have been very expensive (and slower then now).

Now that we are at the point where the competition are all about to flood the market with 4k, that time of buying an Epic for rentals looks closer to a required 1 year on ROI. Why? It won't be Red's discount that makes it tough, it'll be the rest of the cameras from Sony, Canon, and maybe Panasonic if they ever figure out how to even play the game. Return on Investment is gonna be a lot tougher because of them then Red. Alexa is gonna step up to the plate too. Having more Red cameras in the market simply means that folks may want to rent a second camera to have more coverage. Rent accessories like cards, batteries and other needs that they don't own (from other Red owners). I still believe it will help rental houses as it would the DP and indie-filmmakers alike.

No sir. 1.5 years is the normal expectation for most people.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

guys..go shoot something

epic? scarlet? gh2 hack.. gh3 hack..

its all LEGIT..

 

[John semikian]

No sir. 1.5 years is the normal expectation for most people.

dude just upgrade to Dragon when it comes out and walla you got a pricey camera to rent out again.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Sounds like every day here in Hollywood - but add all camera types to the list including film(although less film these days)

Dan I like you, and I like your products. But that is a silly comment. I have never seen a set from a Hollywood film or television show without an extremely competent and talented DP at the helm.

 

[Alexey Datsenko]

The main things of course is shooting projects not rental!
Projects are new shock for the world! Rental it is just money!
But often to shoot new project it is needs to earn money!
Now it will be much harder to earn money by rental Epic for new projects!
But it is just changing of thinking.

 

[John semikian]

Dan I like you, and I like your products. But that is a silly comment. I have never seen a set from a Hollywood film or television show without an extremely competent and talented DP at the helm.

hahahahah you need to come out to hollywood.