Epic vs F65

[Nick Timmons]

Not complete nonsense, but some of these points are debatable. I find the Alexa to be simpler to use on a single person/guerrilla shoot. You just hoist the thing on your shoulder, and shoot. You'll need a shoulder rig for Epic, and the menus can be a little trickier. Of course, the fact that the Epic doesn't have a built-in shoulder mount is a huge advantage in other shooting modes!
Rental return is also VERY debatable, and I would be inclined to say the Alexa wins by a margin, but this is an opinion backed by nothing but personal anecdotal evidence.

 

[M Most]

alexa is winning in itv land uk, epic is winning in america it seems.. all are over priced imho

In television? Not really. In the US, the Alexa practically owns the network and cable television production market, at least in terms of studio level work. In fact, if you made a list of shows on Alexa vs. shows on anything else, the "anything else" would be a remarkably short list. In features, it's a healthy mix of Epic, Alexa, and F65 these days, partly depending on whether the picture is 3D (in which case Epic has great advantages and is therefore a very common choice) and its budget level (larger budget, non-3D pictures at this point are gravitating towards either film or the F65, albeit with a number of exceptions). In terms of personal ownership cameras, yes, the Epic obviously has considerably higher numbers than either of the other two, which is not surprising given that this has always been a large part of Red's plan right from the start.

 

[Dave Blackham]

In television? Not really. In the US, the Alexa practically owns the network and cable television production market, at least in terms of studio level work. In fact, if you made a list of shows on Alexa vs. shows on anything else, the "anything else" would be a remarkably short list.

Do you think this is a workflow advantage Alexa has, marketing or other factor ?

 

[M Most]

Do you think this is a workflow advantage Alexa has, marketing or other factor ?

All of the above. But what I hear most often is the images (#1 answer), perceived simplicity, and ease of conform in post. There are some misnomers, to be sure. As an example, if you asked the average cameraman or post person which files are generally smaller - ProRes 444 or Red 4K - the majority would probably say ProRes, which in most cases is the wrong answer. If you're comparing to Epic the file sizes are often closer, depending on what compression you choose. But "smaller file sizes" is not a sensible reason to choose Alexa for television work, even though it's sometimes listed as one. The other reasons are more sensible, even if they are opinions.

Having said that, the "workflow" argument could be a lot less significant if Red would figure out a way to eliminate the need for the Red Rocket and do their "heavy lifting" on commodity GPUs, like both Arri and Sony currently do. Everyone doing any kind of serious post work has things like GTX580's in their systems, or can easily add them. Not everyone wants to spend $10K on two Red Rocket cards just to be able to handle one camera efficiently on every machine, especially when they already need the Nvidia cards for everything else. Granted, wavelet decompression is a compute intensive task, and neither Arri nor Sony have to deal with that (the tradeoff being larger file sizes, of course). But there is a CUDA enabled JPEG2000 engine, and has been for quite a while. Red's argument that doing it on custom hardware is "better" is holding them back IMHO, especially for those who don't really see what's "better" about it and are really just interested in pure speed and commonality with the workflows for other cameras. Red and RedUsers might not like hearing that, but it is reality.

 

[rod bradley]

Rob Ruffo's points are to me very well taken. My feeling is being too Red-centric and not taking in account Epic's characteristics realistically (some might call weaknesses) along with its astonishing strengths, actually demeans the camera and creates a kind of distrust that allows false mythologies to proliferate. Fan-boyism does not reflect well on either Red or those of us who use Epics and Red One's for the vast majority of our work. I loved my Red 1, I love my Epic but they are not the only cameras in the world.

If we cannot admit imperfections in ourselves, pointing out imperfections in others becomes pretty hollow and smacks of arrogance.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

All of the above. But what I hear most often is the images (#1 answer), perceived simplicity, and ease of conform in post. There are some misnomers, to be sure. As an example, if you asked the average cameraman or post person which files are generally smaller - ProRes 444 or Red 4K - the majority would probably say ProRes, which in most cases is the wrong answer. If you're comparing to Epic the file sizes are often closer, depending on what compression you choose. But "smaller file sizes" is not a sensible reason to choose Alexa for television work, even though it's sometimes listed as one. The other reasons are more sensible, even if they are opinions.

Having said that, the "workflow" argument could be a lot less significant if Red would figure out a way to eliminate the need for the Red Rocket and do their "heavy lifting" on commodity GPUs, like both Arri and Sony currently do. Everyone doing any kind of serious post work has things like GTX580's in their systems, or can easily add them. Not everyone wants to spend $10K on two Red Rocket cards just to be able to handle one camera efficiently on every machine, especially when they already need the Nvidia cards for everything else. Granted, wavelet decompression is a compute intensive task, and neither Arri nor Sony have to deal with that (the tradeoff being larger file sizes, of course). But there is a CUDA enabled JPEG2000 engine, and has been for quite a while. Red's argument that doing it on custom hardware is "better" is holding them back IMHO, especially for those who don't really see what's "better" about it and are really just interested in pure speed and commonality with the workflows for other cameras. Red and RedUsers might not like hearing that, but it is reality.

I agree. I have also noticed that the Redrocket debayering is not quite as clean as Resolve's. (Difference is very subtle, but there).

I also understand not everyone wants to use Premiere, although it does solve the issue completely, and has generally become a totally non-crappy NLE despite it's ultra-crap origins.

 

[Dave Blackham]

I think Mike is right on those points. The issue is here work out what the weaknesses are and fix them, in our house I don't have an issue with Red workflow but would prefer it if there were an easy debeyer engine, I have have plenty high end GPU's all of which could angle Debeyer if we had code to do it. There is a difference between RR debeyer and software debeyer I believe and I think software wins by a small margin. For an Red v Prores workflow then it is easier for Alexa, irrespective of perceived good or less good image quality, just in terms of simplicity, Im not so sure that Sony wins the game for its workflow though.

Its interesting Premier is mentioned only as we bought another couple of licences today to aid workflow. I suppose we will have to get to like it. Given we are still on a continually improving technology trajectory in that things are getting faster then perhaps things will move to RT GPU debeyer quickly.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I think Mike is right on those points. The issue is here work out what the weaknesses are and fix them, in our house I don't have an issue with Red workflow but would prefer it if there were an easy debeyer engine, I have have plenty high end GPU's all of which could angle Debeyer if we had code to do it. There is a difference between RR debeyer and software debeyer I believe and I think software wins by a small margin. For an Red v Prores workflow then it is easier for Alexa, irrespective of perceived good or less good image quality, just in terms of simplicity, Im not so sure that Sony wins the game for its workflow though.

Its interesting Premier is mentioned only as we bought another couple of licences today to aid workflow. I suppose we will have to get to like it. Given we are still on a continually improving technology trajectory in that things are getting faster then perhaps things will move to RT GPU debeyer quickly.

Welcome to the world of only transcoding the finished timeline, and not really needing a Rocket at all

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Tick your own boxes...

No, add your own boxes. It's like adding "gas mileage" as a checkbox. Who cares?

 

[tony gardiner]

I understand it is within peoples nature to want to know"what is the best camera!?!" but it is a case of different tools for different jobs! I own a 5dmkII, a red1, an epic and a F65 and I love all of them for different reasons. I suggest to every person out there who calls themselves cinematographers, cameraman, directors of photography, students, whatever to go and TEST for yourselves.

The epic is amazing because it of it size its versatility, resolution, frame rate, hdrx (and many other reasons). The red one is amazing because a student / professional on a tight budget can go rent and shoot with a camera that has shot oscar winning films for next to nothing and the images are in stunning 4k!!! The F65 is a camera that has an amazing natural dynamic range and amazing color rendition, it has an 8k sensor that subsample down to 4k it has a stunning image quality. I have only shot a handful of jobs on the Alexa however that camera suits a lot of peoples needs and wants. As much as some people want it there is not one camera out there that suits every need of every person, i.e while the epic may suit every one of YOUR personal needs, it does not suit every one of my clients needs so hence I have a variety of cameras.

I LOVE my epic the red one started my love affair with red and the epic has strengthened it. However I love my F65, to ask me to choose would be like asking to choose a favorite child, (some people may able to do that but they would never tell anyone )
I just get tired of the "vs" arguments we live in an AMAZING time with some many wonderful options. Sometimes I feel we as an industry focus to much on the gear and not enough on our craft. If you are an aspiring cinematographer go out and shoot learn your craft then make informed decisions on which gear is best for you shoot.

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

I understand it is within peoples nature to want to know"what is the best camera!?!" but it is a case of different tools for different jobs!

I find this rational thinking; There is no per se "best" camera. Rather this kind of thread --which repeats itself here in RedUser every now and then-- makes sense as a poll how people rate different cameras and why, but it makes less sense to argue in any objective manner why a camera is better than another.

Often find it is not even possible to put different cameras in order, but instead in reality the situation resembles that of the rock-paper-scissors game. As Tony said, different tools for different needs. There's often also a trade-off in the specific features of cameras. For instance, many has said the fan of Epic is bit loud and that's my own impression as well. However, I rather keep the high frame rates and the bandwidth than gave up of those features in place of less fan noise. Besides, the heat that is cooled with the fan is wonderful when it gets really cold. It's such a pleasure in cold that the fingers do not freeze when touching the camera!

Of course, for Red Digital Cinema it is important to understand in the statistical sense how the majority of people rate different features and why people decide to buy different cameras. For me it looks like they've taken this process very seriously and made the proper conclusions and that's why Epic is such a wonderful camera. It definitely has the features most people find very valuable, and that's, I guess, why so many are ready to say in this forum it's "the best". But objectively, that's always in the eye of the beholder. Still, the very fact that so many people whose needs are very different share such a "the best" view on Red cameras already suggests that R1/Epic/Scarlet are to be taken seriously.

 

[Brian D. Goff]

What should we do better in the UI to get the "Menu interface simplicity" check box as well?

1. When navigating in menues, make the drop down menus much larger - would ease navigation especially with the touch screen.

2. When navigating in menues, picture display is irrelevant, so you could use the entire screen for the input buttons. This way for example you could eventually even pack the all the frame rates on to the screen so you no longer need to scroll!

 

[Paul Ellington]

1. When navigating in menues, make the drop down menus much larger - would ease navigation especially with the touch screen.

2. When navigating in menues, picture display is irrelevant, so you could use the entire screen for the input buttons. This way for example you could eventually even pack the all the frame rates on to the screen so you no longer need to scroll!

?

I think the question was being asked rhetorically...

 

[Paul Ellington]

I understand it is within peoples nature to want to know"what is the best camera!?!" but it is a case of different tools for different jobs! I own a 5dmkII, a red1, an epic and a F65 and I love all of them for different reasons. I suggest to every person out there who calls themselves cinematographers, cameraman, directors of photography, students, whatever to go and TEST for yourselves.

The epic is amazing because it of it size its versatility, resolution, frame rate, hdrx (and many other reasons). The red one is amazing because a student / professional on a tight budget can go rent and shoot with a camera that has shot oscar winning films for next to nothing and the images are in stunning 4k!!! The F65 is a camera that has an amazing natural dynamic range and amazing color rendition, it has an 8k sensor that subsample down to 4k it has a stunning image quality. I have only shot a handful of jobs on the Alexa however that camera suits a lot of peoples needs and wants. As much as some people want it there is not one camera out there that suits every need of every person, i.e while the epic may suit every one of YOUR personal needs, it does not suit every one of my clients needs so hence I have a variety of cameras.

I LOVE my epic the red one started my love affair with red and the epic has strengthened it. However I love my F65, to ask me to choose would be like asking to choose a favorite child, (some people may able to do that but they would never tell anyone )
I just get tired of the "vs" arguments we live in an AMAZING time with some many wonderful options. Sometimes I feel we as an industry focus to much on the gear and not enough on our craft. If you are an aspiring cinematographer go out and shoot learn your craft then make informed decisions on which gear is best for you shoot.

The point that ends it for me and if I may be so bold as to speak for a few other RED EPIC owners I know, is things that do in fact matter.

1 SIZE

2 BANG little gun big...

3 Big Price Dif.

4 Upgradability, and if Sony does offer this which was rumored if would be a first for that company.

5 I'm all for more rez. right now 5K with 6K coming is enough. People are already screaming about proxy recoders now you want a giant camera or are discussing it rationally on REDUser ... A little odd...

Plus, extra latitude, FPS, improvements all the time via firmware updates.

And so much control in post... I could go on but folks are arguing for the other camera, which as Mr. Jannard said is a worthy competitor, but still in my life it's a no contest from the giddy-up...

Lastly... Editing systems are building around R3D,... the writing is on the wall but you don't have to learn how to read.

This is my opinion.

I love RED.

- Ellington

 

[Gunleik Groven]

?

I think the question was being asked rhetorically...

I think the question is not without merit...
I am not saying that the menues are "harder", they are just perceived as more confusing. And I do see a lot that the operator is not too happy with all that stuff going on in the monitor he/she is using when operated from the touchscreen.
Hopefully the antenna upgrade (+ M upgrade) will make the redmotes a usefull option. They haven't been here so far. And no, we haven't re-tested at every available update, solutions are set in the beginning of (long) productions. If it doesn't work then, it won't practically be implemented before next preprod.

STuff like that contributes to the impressions of the different systems.

 

[Paul Ellington]

I think the question is not without merit...
I am not saying that the menues are "harder", they are just perceived as more confusing. And I do see a lot that the operator is not too happy with all that stuff going on in the monitor he/she is using when operated from the touchscreen.
Hopefully the antenna upgrade (+ M upgrade) will make the redmotes a usefull option. They haven't been here so far. And no, we haven't re-tested at every available update, solutions are set in the beginning of (long) productions. If it doesn't work then, it won't practically be implemented before next preprod.

STuff like that contributes to the impressions of the different systems.

No doubt I used a gentle stylus... Rubber tip

A EVF would offset the cost of going from F65 to Epic if the op doesn't like what he's seeing. The OLED ROCKS. 10,000:1 contrast ratio.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Sure, but then we're back to the single EVF/LCD contact and the choice between handle (which seems functional now) and the RedMote (which until now has lost contact too easilly) for operation. It is just a no-go for the AC to try to explain why the set waits for something out of his/her control to work... again.

Hey.
I love the Epic like a baby, but I do see why these perceptions exist.

It's like the EVF (which we have an upgrade of on order). It's gonna work... now...
I know of shows and sales that went Alexa purely because of the EVF difference, and RED - until they did something with it - only responded by sayiong the original was good. Which it clearly was not.

Good thing is that RED is picking up on these things, but if we're to get Epics into productions in doubt, we (as owners/supporters/whatever) need to come up with good alternate solutions, and not denyal of stuff which is easilly seen...
That is often not too hard. As long as we don't go into denial.

I actually think the "film cam" mode for simplified menues is pretty good...

 

[Paul Ellington]

Sure, but then we're back to the single EVF/LCD contact and the choice between handle (which seems functional now) and the RedMote (which until now has lost contact too easilly) for operation. It is just a no-go for the AC to try to explain why the set waits for something out of his/her control to work... again.

Hey.
I love the Epic like a baby, but I do see why these perceptions exist.


It's like the EVF (which we have an upgrade of on order). It's gonna work... now...
I know of shows and sales that went Alexa purely because of the EVF difference, and RED - until they did something with it - only responded by sayiong the original was good. Which it clearly was not.

Good thing is that RED is picking up on these things, but if we're to get Epics into productions in doubt, we (as owners/supporters/whatever) need to come up with good alternate solutions, and not denyal of stuff which is easilly seen...
That is often not too hard. As long as we don't go into denial.

I actually think the "film cam" mode for simplified menues is pretty good...

It's an easy fix... HD/SDI out to monitor, and your done. Look, people are always going to find faults with something. People here wont be satisfied until both HD/SDI and HDMI are able to be on at once along with 4 other monitors. I just think it, not you Gunleik you know your stuff, is unreasonable to constantly be asking for more better faster when they (RED) are in fact a million times faster than their nearest competitors and, does Mr. Sony frequent the Sony forum to see how people like the new X455 ? It's dizzying for me, imagine what the RED workers must feel like.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Agreed. Paul.
Just think I gut react a bit to people going into denyal instead of accepting & solving.

I have a numbers of R1s and Epics running around me collecting lovely images everyday. It's not like I don't like the cams. But that - in a multiuser long-form environment, has given me a much more hands on understanding of some of the complaints and how to handle them. Your fix here has the disadvantage of nothing to operate with in many practical situations (given that the RedMote didn't really do anything usefull at the time we set up the workflow, and the sidehandles buttons were triggered all the time, so the op needed to take it off)...
If you don't think your main mission is to change the DoPs way of working...

And it is all solveable. But I see a big difference in "me as me" being superhappy to be able to use this fantastic tool, and "me as responsible for large form signalchains and workflows" without being on PJ budgets...

Mini-me, can and will allways solve everything and live with the solutions without feeling they compromise anything.

Maxi-me see that I cannot spend time teaching full sets in guerilla filming, so I have to find other solutions. So far that has not been another camera, and after allmost a year now of intense use, our Epics are getting really good.

I guess the point is that they arrive a bit more like a puzzle, than most other cams I have seen...

Cheers

I'll leave this now.

Point made!
And I see yours, too!

hahahaha

 

[Paul Ellington]

Agreed. Paul.
Just think I gut react a bit to people going into denyal instead of solving.
O have a numbers of R1s and Epics running around me collecting lovely images everyday. It's not I don't like the cams. But that - in a multiuser long-form environment, has given me a much more hands on understanding of some of the complaints and how to handle them. Your fix here has the disadvantage of nothing to operate with in many practical situations..ø. If you don't think your main mission is to change the DoPs way of working...

And it is all solveable. But I see a big difference in "me as me" being superhappy to be able to use this fantastic tool, and "me as responsible for large form signalchains and workflows".
Mini-me, can and will allways solve everything.
Maxi-me see that I cannot spend time teaching full sets in guerilla filming, so I have to find other solutions. So far that has not been another camera, and after allmost a year now of intense use, our Epics are getting really good.

I guess the point is that they arrive a bit more like a puzzle, than most other cams I have seen...

Cheers

I'll leave this now.

Point made!
And I see yours, too!

hahahaha

Agree, understand, and respect all of your points.

Best.

-E