Epic vs F65

[Mark Toia]

What should we do better in the UI to get the "Menu interface simplicity" check box as well?

I find it ridiculously simple myself... But for 90% of the digital film community that haven't a clue what half the stuff you have in there, especially under your menu drop bars... they sit there scratching there heads. Ive seen them in the rental houses, So sad to watch.
Arri... Made menu systems for the 90% that just don't get it.

I'm happy though Trent.

Don't do anything we like options!!

yeah, what Robino said.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

What should we do better in the UI to get the "Menu interface simplicity" check box as well?

Now, THAT is actually a relevant challenge to think about.

It HAS become a lot easier. And it isn't really true that the Alex is that easy when you go beyond basic settings. So it is more about giving the impression of non-compelxity than not being complex.

Personally I'd love to hide away all the "grade on set" stuff that is videoish and pretty complex, make "view RAW" a relevant option and...
Actually it would be more like you have two alternative set of menues:

1. film cam
2. videoish tweek cam

"film cam" needs about the simplicity that is presented to you bt the alexa
When people are comfy with those settings and how the cam behaves with them, there is the option to go into all "the weird shit".

Secondly (for an Epic II)
Optical filtering for whiteballancing (not tint)... or at least something for around 3k and 7k
Tint consistency out of sensor-calibration. But I guess that would involve some more tweaking of how the matrix works.
(I have a few REDs around me and the tint carractaristics of them is quite diverse. All kinda within "tolerance", but the most magenta and the most green look quite annoying together for the DPs/producers. Of course it is easilly solveable, that is not the issue, but it creates uncertainty initially, and THAT is not good.)
Built in NDs

 

[Terry VerHaar]

In all fairness, he's speaking of first-hand issues, so who's to say it didn't happen. The only issue you could maybe take with his statement is about the F65. I can safely say, all cameras have issues. I've been on set enough to see them all have their moments. Reds have had issues (fortunately my Red One was rock solid), I've seen an Alexa shutdown due to overheating (I know, not supposed to happen), I've seen DSLRs practically fall apart on set, and film cameras break too. Production environments are difficult. Stuff happens. No camera is impervious to problems. Since most of them are computers with a lens, we all know computers can have issues.

And as far as personal experience goes - DPs live by that. If they have had bad experiences with a piece of gear, it stays with them and they are skeptical moving forward. Just the way it is. They're not the only ones either. Directors and producers remember these things too. Even if it's an isolated incident, it forms an impression.

Perhaps I didn't state my point very well. I have no doubt that plenty of problems have happened with RED, these individual experiences, whatever they were, in particular. But it isn't fair to generalize based on one person's anecdotal experience, even if it's your own. Maybe I should have just pointed out that others shouldn't give stories like this more weight than they deserve and, instead, look at the "big picture" of information that is out there. I think there is plenty of evidence that suggests RED's cameras perform very well on major production in professionals environments.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

That's not what I said, and if you understand English you know it. I said, "This is as you know .... reduser.net .... so you might not find many knowledgeable F65 users here.". I then asked where one might better conduct this discussion. Someone answered "Cinematography.com". I also presented the .pdf for the F65 manual. All this was done to help aid the OP in his quest. I showed him how to get better answers, faster, for his question.

I was not referring to you, specifically.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

This always upsets people...

Alexa has slightly better latitude without HDR - And I am not always a fan of HDRX. Pretty sure F65 also has the best latitude of all three (again - without HDRX) and the best low-light performance. In some markets, also, an Alexa rents a lot easier than an Epic. I do love our Epic, but it's foolish to think the other cameras have no meaningful advantages and are only used by idiots.

 

[Mark Toia]

Alexa has slightly better latitude without HDR - And I am not always a fan of HDRX. Pretty sure F65 also has the best latitude of all three (again - without HDRX) and the best low-light performance. In some markets, also, an Alexa rents a lot easier than an Epic. I do love our Epic, but it's foolish to think the other cameras have no meaningful advantages and are only used by idiots.

Did I say Alexa and F65 users were idiots ?

And your correct, Alexa's do rent out more... I'll Amend that. But why Rent when you can buy )) After 30 days of renting, you can own. Simple math ya...

And they do have advantages, my boat needs a new Anchor! .... (joke) hahahhahaaa
no seriously... I do like the idea of not having to transcode. That's the only feature with the Alexa i dig...
Once RED bring out there 4k LOG PRORES Module. Then thinks will really change for the better.

The Sony... well. The hugely expensive F23 and the F35 had the shortest life spans ever... I know people with these sitting on shelves right now, gathering a year of un-rented dust. Right next to there D21's... hey, D21, there's my Anchor

 

[shashbugu]

Arri has absolutely no intention of selling Alexas to individuals in the future. Trust me on this.. That's how they always get into a market. They get folks hooked to the $60,000 camera then they keep increasing the price on every new model which incidentally is always aimed at studios and large rental facilities. The next Version they release will be at the $250,000 mark. in tune with their 35mm film camera losses. If you get hooked to their sales hype message of "this is what the studios use so its the best", you will miss out on 6k 15 stop goodness of the dragon

 

[Daniel Stilling]

the F65 balances a lot better on a Steadicam, ...

I don't know if you ever put an F65 pig on a Steadicam and operated it, but my goodness, there's no way any experienced Steadi op would chose an F65 over an Epic. I have been a Steadi op for the last 17 years and love my Scarlet. Panavisions version of the F35, called the Genesis, had the peculiar nickname within the Steadicam community "Genocide", and that camera was smaller...that will give you an idea.

 

[George Butterfield]

I was not referring to you, specifically.

Specifically, sorry, thanks.

 

[Dave Blackham]

This is as you know .... reduser.net .... so you might not find many knowledgeable F65 users here. Is there a forum were a discussion like this could get more responses? Is there a forum to discuss all the various PRO Systems?
Maybe you could read this ...
http://www.bandpro.com/images/stories/PDF/SonyF65/Sony_F65_Operation_Manual.pdf
and this ....
https://www.red.com/downloads
and all the other info on RED.COM and get back to us with your assessment.

Thanks for the manual !

Apart from it being a beast in size. Im more interested in the actual images it produces so be great to hear of any actual tests for comparison to Epic and Alexa.

Quite what to do with all of the data F65 produces on a like for like basis as Epic at its best could be a sperate question....

 

[Nick Gardner]

What should we do better in the UI to get the "Menu interface simplicity" check box as well?

I think you already win in that category. I think thee "alexa is so intuitive" thing is a load of crap. How is having all the controls on the dumb side smart?

In the future, things red could mature and improve on would be functionality. Such as -

The location of the viewfinder cable is less than ideal.

The location of almost all cables seems haphazard and like it was an after thought.

There is no really elegant viewfinder mounting option. That one's hard, I don't know what the solution is, but it's not any of the things that are out there.

There is no reason in the world that you should need a riser to use with studio base plates, make it the right height in the first place- use the dead space for air flow.

There is no reason in the world why there isn't a means of attaching 15mm LW support directly to the camera from the factory. Be it aaton style or arri SR style, or even Alexa style.

The camera is fantastic. It's truly revolutionary. Most other camera systems had years to mature and be refined. I love the Epic, I just want it to be an elegant laser beam of awesome, and it needs a little refinement ;-)

Nick

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

I think you already win in that category. I think thee "alexa is so intuitive" thing is a load of crap. How is having all the controls on the dumb side smart?

I thought it looked like a good idea but if it really bugs you it's not like you don't have options, a RCU and an iPad app.

 

[Paul Ellington]

This is silly really, sure all cameras are good, but, this again is REDUser where RED RULES, my Epic is king and if I was considering running a rental business maybe what's being talked about would concern me. I know as tech changes I will grow with my RED which is huge. And, side by side Epic V Alexa, (don't know about Sony looks nice but way to big for me and also not enough DR). Epic is better hands down and we are just getting started. Dragon, I don't have any knowledge anyone else doesn't have but we can all expect big things from RED so again, the competition is cooked -- period.

 

[conrad gaunt]

This always upsets people...

do they get more upset when you tell them its out of date, epic does 120fps at 5k? .. or about the same

alexa is winning in itv land uk, epic is winning in america it seems.. all are over priced imho

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Did I say Alexa and F65 users were idiots ?

And your correct, Alexa's do rent out more... I'll Amend that. But why Rent when you can buy )) After 30 days of renting, you can own. Simple math ya...

And they do have advantages, my boat needs a new Anchor! .... (joke) hahahhahaaa
no seriously... I do like the idea of not having to transcode. That's the only feature with the Alexa i dig...
Once RED bring out there 4k LOG PRORES Module. Then thinks will really change for the better.

The Sony... well. The hugely expensive F23 and the F35 had the shortest life spans ever... I know people with these sitting on shelves right now, gathering a year of un-rented dust. Right next to there D21's... hey, D21, there's my Anchor

For many of us part of buying is knowing you can rent to others to help amortize.

Transcoding is not an issue for us - we use Premiere and Resolve - but I wouldn't be so brash and quick to conclusions - you often do this Mark - I'd go as far as to say that in general things are not as simplistic as you sometimes make them out to be.

 

[Dave Blackham]

For many of us part of buying is knowing you can rent to others to help amortize.

Transcoding is not an issue for us - we use Premiere and Resolve - but I wouldn't be so brash and quick to conclusions - you often do this Mark - I'd go as far as to say that in general things are not as simplistic as you sometimes make them out to be.

The first priority of camera purchase for our company is to ensure it is up to the job in hand of making outstanding images, for us Epic very definitely is. No regrets. In itself thats also part of the financial question of payback to ensure it is a viable and worthwhile investment. In our area of the planet Alexa cameras do hire for more and also cost more, I am not so sure they make better pictures but Im perfectly respectful of the camera and those who chose to operate it. As for the F65, we Havant put it up against Epic yet but hope to do so in a fair comparison to evaluate the images and functionality. Im sure the images will be good. As for getting it on to a shoulder mount or steady cam or a 3D rig I'm not so sure. The data handling seems to be getting sorted out so time will tell on that too. And Id also like to know about upgrades and when the F75 will appear, will it be superseded before our next Epic upgrade is available online..........

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

In the formal sense of logic, an order in any set is always an external qualifier. This is to say, no set has an intrinsic order, and therefore this kind of issues are always opinions. A practical example to make the point is, if one is shooting on a small boat and it suddenly starts storming and one needs desperately an anchor, then one probably finds F65 better than Epic. But if it remains sunny and nice, then one may make a different choice. ;-)

 

[shashbugu]

this is why I love Redusers, they are all as crazy as JJ

In the formal sense of logic, an order in any set is always an external qualifier. This is to say, no set has an intrinsic order, and therefore this kind of issues are always opinions. A practical example to make the point is, if one is shooting on a small boat and it suddenly starts storming and one needs desperately an anchor, then one probably finds F65 better than Epic. But if it remains sunny and nice, then one may make a different choice. ;-)

 

[Dave Blackham]

In the formal sense of logic, an order in any set is always an external qualifier. This is to say, no set has an intrinsic order, and therefore this kind of issues are always opinions. A practical example to make the point is, if one is shooting on a small boat and it suddenly starts storming and one needs desperately an anchor, then one probably finds F65 better than Epic. But if it remains sunny and nice, then one may make a different choice. ;-)

Very good point. I shall add it to the pros list for F65. I now need some one to volunteer to test this in practice....

 

[Rob Ruffo]

The first priority of camera purchase for our company is to ensure it is up to the job in hand of making outstanding images, for us Epic very definitely is. No regrets. In itself thats also part of the financial question of payback to ensure it is a viable and worthwhile investment. In our area of the planet Alexa cameras do hire for more and also cost more, I am not so sure they make better pictures but Im perfectly respectful of the camera and those who chose to operate it. As for the F65, we Havant put it up against Epic yet but hope to do so in a fair comparison to evaluate the images and functionality. Im sure the images will be good. As for getting it on to a shoulder mount or steady cam or a 3D rig I'm not so sure. The data handling seems to be getting sorted out so time will tell on that too. And Id also like to know about upgrades and when the F75 will appear, will it be superseded before our next Epic upgrade is available online..........

All good points, and the kind of discussion that is useful here.