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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Epic vs F65

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Dan Nosmar said:
I must say, the Red is a great camera if you're on a budget or need 48 or them, but I'd take an f65 over it any day. The rotating shutter kills almost all rolling shutter artifacts, It balances a lot better on a Steadicam, and it doesn't crash! Every time I've used a red, there's been some sort of firmware problem. I've never had any issues with an Alexa and I'm sure the F65 won't have any problems.
I'm sorry, but you get what you pay for.
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So your paying for... ? what ?
Two cameras for price of one ?
bigger heavier, slower ?
slower frames rates ?
PRO RES mot RAW ? oh you have to pay for a codex box as well...
Red is not as superior because its cheaper?

What are you paying for exactly?

You lost me there Dan...

Andrew M. said:
This always upsets people...

Read the title :-)
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hahahaha...
 
Mark Toia said:
This always upsets people... :)

Sony_Arri_Epic_2.jpg
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F65 = ChoadCam
 
they still make the F65? wow! the mere mention of the SR recorder kills it ... Of course the Epic is the better camera, its the only one you can actually use.
 
F65 is a nice amera...but:
1. It is way too heavy for many types of filming, including underwater and remote locations
2. It does not feature removable lens mount and therefore it is currently not possible to achieve more than about standard definition quality underwater out of it.

...other than that, it is fine for the remaining 1% of the shooting that I do :)
 
I just attended an F65 class in Hollywood and the resolution and 16bit depth is truly amazing and gives you more latitude in post. That being said when the f65 camera shoots full res it is a huge 2gb per sec data rate where an Epic at 5k FF no compression is only 152mb per second. And with movies such as Spiderman shot on Red at 6:1 compression I'm sure there is plenty or resulution for everyone. I would love to use an f65 its just physically a big body and the file would be just crazy to work with. There is more to talk about but those were the big issues i noticed and therefor would stay with Red and push other people the same way
 
Jan Schuster said:
I just attended an F65 class in Hollywood and the resolution and 16bit depth is truly amazing and gives you more latitude in post. That being said when the f65 camera shoots full res it is a huge 2gb per sec data rate where an Epic at 5k FF no compression is only 152mb per second. And with movies such as Spiderman shot on Red at 6:1 compression I'm sure there is plenty or resulution for everyone. I would love to use an f65 its just physically a big body and the file would be just crazy to work with. There is more to talk about but those were the big issues i noticed and therefor would stay with Red and push other people the same way
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You are mixing Mbits with MBytes
 
Dan Nosmar said:
... Every time I've used a red, there's been some sort of firmware problem. I've never had any issues with an Alexa and I'm sure the F65 won't have any problems.
I'm sorry, but you get what you pay for.
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This is simply anecdotal FUD and, while no one can confirm or deny your own experiences except you, evidence would suggest that RED has, particularly in recent years, developed a good track record for reliability. There are way too many BIG features and BIG DPs shooting it to think it it is plagued with "firmware problems." You can prefer F65 if you want, but let's not deal in FUD and pretend that purely personal experience is the norm. One might ask, when the was last time you shot RED?
 
game over

game over

IF size, weight and cost didn't matter then the F65 vs Epic debate might be worth having. FWIW the F65 does make great images, but the "payload" in terms of data generated, power consumed and support gear capable of handling a camera that size are significant issues.

As a lifelong shooter the compact design, small high capacity mags and overall flexibility make the Epic an easy choice. Add to that the smart data compression scheme, free updates, free software tools and RAW color. Game over.

A couple of years ago a lot of the old pros in the biz were saying that once the industry giants like Sony and Arri got serious about digital cinema they would clean RED's clock. I opined that even if they could, why would they even try when Jim's volume enabled price point was so aggressive. IMO Arri had already seen the writing on the wall for their film camera sales so they had no choice. Their color science chops honed on their scanner program combined with what they learned on the D-20 and D-21 (plus perhaps a bit of a peek at what RED was doing ;-) led them to build the Alexa.

I'll let you draw your own conclusions on why Sony decided to build the F65. My sense is that they truly believe in 4K (and someday 8K) as the logical future and wanted to stay in the game. How ironic is it that the future of RDC as a going concern is now more solid than venerated Sony - have you seen their stock price of late?

As always, I bet on the Red Team because THEY GET IT.

Cheers - #19
 
The F65 makes great looking footage. Its workflow is not there yet. But hey, Eventually...... Years from now, other manufacturers will not only take the guys with the only cool booth at NAB seriously, but be kicking them selves for not taking notice sooner. Simply sales numbers should be scaring the hell out of them. I bet there are 15 complete epics for every F65 out there.
 
Timur Civan said:
The F65 makes great looking footage. Its workflow is not there yet. But hey, Eventually...... Years from now, other manufacturers will not only take the guys with the only cool booth at NAB seriously, but be kicking them selves for not taking notice sooner. Simply sales numbers should be scaring the hell out of them. I bet there are 15 complete epics for every F65 out there.
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The F65 is reaching it's intended market so unless they are making huge losses in this area they have nothing to fear, I don't see Red quaking in it's boots when it's out shined and outsold by a bunch of stills cameras which have any number of drawbacks but are overwhelmingly favored none the less.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
This is simply anecdotal FUD and, while no one can confirm or deny your own experiences except you, evidence would suggest that RED has, particularly in recent years, developed a good track record for reliability. There are way too many BIG features and BIG DPs shooting it to think it it is plagued with "firmware problems." You can prefer F65 if you want, but let's not deal in FUD and pretend that purely personal experience is the norm. One might ask, when the was last time you shot RED?
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In all fairness, he's speaking of first-hand issues, so who's to say it didn't happen. The only issue you could maybe take with his statement is about the F65. I can safely say, all cameras have issues. I've been on set enough to see them all have their moments. Reds have had issues (fortunately my Red One was rock solid), I've seen an Alexa shutdown due to overheating (I know, not supposed to happen), I've seen DSLRs practically fall apart on set, and film cameras break too. Production environments are difficult. Stuff happens. No camera is impervious to problems. Since most of them are computers with a lens, we all know computers can have issues.

And as far as personal experience goes - DPs live by that. If they have had bad experiences with a piece of gear, it stays with them and they are skeptical moving forward. Just the way it is. They're not the only ones either. Directors and producers remember these things too. Even if it's an isolated incident, it forms an impression.
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
IF size, weight and cost didn't matter then the F65 vs Epic debate might be worth having. FWIW the F65 does make great images, but the "payload" in terms of data generated, power consumed and support gear capable of handling a camera that size are significant issues.

As a lifelong shooter the compact design, small high capacity mags and overall flexibility make the Epic an easy choice. Add to that the smart data compression scheme, free updates, free software tools and RAW color. Game over.

A couple of years ago a lot of the old pros in the biz were saying that once the industry giants like Sony and Arri got serious about digital cinema they would clean RED's clock. I opined that even if they could, why would they even try when Jim's volume enabled price point was so aggressive. IMO Arri had already seen the writing on the wall for their film camera sales so they had no choice. Their color science chops honed on their scanner program combined with what they learned on the D-20 and D-21 (plus perhaps a bit of a peek at what RED was doing ;-) led them to build the Alexa.

I'll let you draw your own conclusions on why Sony decided to build the F65. My sense is that they truly believe in 4K (and someday 8K) as the logical future and wanted to stay in the game. How ironic is it that the future of RDC as a going concern is now more solid than venerated Sony - have you seen their stock price of late?

As always, I bet on the Red Team because THEY GET IT.

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...
It's interesting. Older DPs and camera ops must laugh at what we think is a big camera these days. Hope we haven't become the wimpy generation. In all seriousness though, there are times when a smaller camera certainly has advantages. But on features, the camera is quite often on a tripod, dolly, crane, etc. Cinema gear is built for the weight. For smaller productions where crew is limited, speed is a factor, and support gear needs to be affordable, then a small camera like Scarlet or Epic is great. Really comes down to what level we're talking about here. Most high-end DPs would rather have the camera that gives them the most pleasing image over choosing a camera because of its size. But Epic has far more going for it than just size, which is why it's a popular camera.
 
Steve Sherrick said:
It's interesting. Older DPs and camera ops must laugh at what we think is a big camera these days. Hope we haven't become the wimpy generation. In all seriousness though, there are times when a smaller camera certainly has advantages. But on features, the camera is quite often on a tripod, dolly, crane, etc. Cinema gear is built for the weight. For smaller productions where crew is limited, speed is a factor, and support gear needs to be affordable, then a small camera like Scarlet or Epic is great. Really comes down to what level we're talking about here. Most high-end DPs would rather have the camera that gives them the most pleasing image over choosing a camera because of its size. But Epic has far more going for it than just size, which is why it's a popular camera.
Click to expand...

I should show you some pictures of me from 2005 hand-holding a BL3...
 
Craig W. Bickerstaff said:
The F65 is reaching it's intended market so unless they are making huge losses in this area they have nothing to fear, I don't see Red quaking in it's boots when it's out shined and outsold by a bunch of stills cameras which have any number of drawbacks but are overwhelmingly favored none the less.
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I'm not saying they are afraid of losing F65 sales to Epic, im saying their only offering to the higher mid market is a toss up between the F3, FS700(maybe? 4k ish?), C300...... crickets........ Is there anything else that can shoot everything from a birthday party for your dog to a one man band corporate videographer to Editorial fashion stills to Prometheus? The point is RED is selling thousands to a generation thats growing up fast forgetting film and small sensors. 5 years from now, will Sony be making a small 5k RAW S35 camera? yes. But RED made that same thing 2 years ago. How long will the average film guy continue to choose whats against his best interest. The market penetration is key.
 
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