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Epic vs F55 for wildlife

S

Steve Phillipps

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I'm just weighing up the pros and cons as I see them between these 2 cameras and thought I'd jot them down in case anyone else is debating the same thing.

Pros of both cameras: Small size and weight, modularity (no longer need to use an ENG camera and basically fight against the use it was designed for), variable frame rates.

Epic pros: High frame rates in 4k and 5k, possibly more rugged, pre record, hot swapping batteries if using V locks and a battery in grip, slightly cheaper, RED still seen as a bit left-field and scary by some producers

F55 pros: Lower power consumption so less batteries to carry (though this is less extreme once the external recorder for RAW is attached), global shutter good for moving subjects (although doesn't seem to be an issue with Epic anyway?), built in NDs (this is big as it's quicker and means you don't need matte box and ND filters - more gear to carry and assemble), greater sensitivity and less noise (good for higher frame rates, slow lenses and poor light - there's a lot of all of these in wildlife filming!), really sexy with producers at the moment!

Anyway, they're my thoughts just now. The only huge one is the high frame rates, apart from that I'd be happy with either.

Steve
 
I made documentaries here in the mountains of Switzerland with the c300, very good at low light .. I think good or similar to the F55 at low lights.
Then recently I wanted to try my Epic, and sincerely with the prerecorder I was very much more quiet. Luckily, otherwise I would have filmed situations only half, since the speed of wild animals.
I had night special situation and always managed to make a good grade.
I think it's more important not to lose details in the wild world, and this only with the Epic prerecorder you the chance.
A beautiful Hawk, Eagle mothership landing to catch the mouse, etc. .. etc.. with prerecorder and all them also with 30 seconds early.
Needless to have ISO 20000 and miss the most beautiful moment.


It's just a thought ......
 
The biggest con agains S35mm cameras in wildlife filming is the relatively short FOV compared to the focal length of the available lenses. 600mm lenses are huge and bulky and need tons of light. For wildlife film projects you rarely use short lenses. Epic Dragon has an 1.5 crop-factor to S35 in 3k 16/9. This means a 300mm lens on Dragon in 3k mode will look like a 450mm lens on the Sony F55. 3k 16/9 translates very well to 1080p and allows 200 fps which again is often needed in wildlife filmmaking.

Epic is more versatile. Sony is more postproduction friendly when transcoding the raw files is an issue. Light sensitivity will be an non-issue with Dragon.

Hans
 
I would pick the epic any day of the week. The "night vision" is good on the Sony, and people like the built in ND's etc. But honestly I find the MX quite capable as well in that regard. For shooting wildlife I find Pre Record as a much bigger factor. So is HDRx, pixel count, RAW you can actually work with and just durability. And The rolling shutter has never caused me any real trouble, I do not really think I will buy into a motion mount for that reason. I know people had problems with their RED's, I have had none, and it really has bee trough a lot. When I look at the sony it looks like my old handycam, it's just so plastic fantastic, now maybe thats no problem for some, but I doubt that they would hold up for what out epic has been trough. Also the mount options, the tremendous work RED has made with the EF mount capabilites. And further most I just find the MX picture better. And using variable ND if needed is not to much of a hassle I think.

And if I would choose on rent then this last reason for shooting epic is not valid but if you are buying into the gear it makes huge difference.... Sony have never and probably will never let you in an upgrade solution. So dragon is a big big reason as well. I bought so many Sony products trough the years and I can not recall one where I did not feel F#)"#KED within a couple of years. I guess the betas SP decks and digibetas where quite a good investments.... But it was not like I was able to upgrade the digi player recorder to a SP/Digi player recorder when that came out just weeks after, and the but the HDcam decks... worst ever, The HDCAMSR.... they did not get to fool me on that one, The Cinealta thing I managed to get out of with not to much of a loss... etc. Not saying they do not do any good products, some are actually good, but their sales ethics does not atract me at all.
 
Björn Benckert said:
I would pick the epic any day of the week. The "night vision" is good on the Sony, and people like the built in ND's etc. But honestly I find the MX quite capable as well in that regard. For shooting wildlife I find Pre Record as a much bigger factor. So is HDRx, pixel count, RAW you can actually work with and just durability. And The rolling shutter has never caused me any real trouble, I do not really think I will buy into a motion mount for that reason. I know people had problems with their RED's, I have had none, and it really has bee trough a lot. When I look at the sony it looks like my old handycam, it's just so plastic fantastic, now maybe thats no problem for some, but I doubt that they would hold up for what out epic has been trough. Also the mount options, the tremendous work RED has made with the EF mount capabilites. And further most I just find the MX picture better. And using variable ND if needed is not to much of a hassle I think.

And if I would choose on rent then this last reason for shooting epic is not valid but if you are buying into the gear it makes huge difference.... Sony have never and probably will never let you in an upgrade solution. So dragon is a big big reason as well. I bought so many Sony products trough the years and I can not recall one where I did not feel F#)"#KED within a couple of years. I guess the betas SP decks and digibetas where quite a good investments.... But it was not like I was able to upgrade the digi player recorder to a SP/Digi player recorder when that came out just weeks after, and the but the HDcam decks... worst ever, The HDCAMSR.... they did not get to fool me on that one, The Cinealta thing I managed to get out of with not to much of a loss... etc. Not saying they do not do any good products, some are actually good, but their sales ethics does not atract me at all.
Click to expand...


Yep, pretty much with you on all of that, and Luigi too.
Steve
 
Hans von Sonntag said:
The biggest con agains S35mm cameras in wildlife filming is the relatively short FOV compared to the focal length of the available lenses. 600mm lenses are huge and bulky and need tons of light. For wildlife film projects you rarely use short lenses. Epic Dragon has an 1.5 crop-factor to S35 in 3k 16/9. This means a 300mm lens on Dragon in 3k mode will look like a 450mm lens on the Sony F55. 3k 16/9 translates very well to 1080p and allows 200 fps which again is often needed in wildlife filmmaking.

Epic is more versatile. Sony is more postproduction friendly when transcoding the raw files is an issue. Light sensitivity will be an non-issue with Dragon.

Hans
Click to expand...

Sigma 300-800 is working well, with and without 2x converter - gets just about up to what I was getting with HJ18x28 on a Varicam (almost!).
Steve
 

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I'm now in post on a wildlife show I've been shooting since December 2011. Using the sigma 300-800 as well and it's great on the epic. Can even mount a scope on a swat rail to help pinpoint wildlife. I do wish battery life was a little better, it would with remote locations. The biggest downside when working in closer proximity, or in a hide, is fan noise. I know some improvements have come along with the fan kit and firmware, but I haven't made the upgrade yet. The one thing that really wins out for me is the upgradability. With Dragon on the way, motion mount, and constant firmware improvements, it's hard to beat. I'm just not sure Sony will offer the same kinds of upgrades and improvements to the camera that RED does.
 
Joe Pontecorvo said:
I'm just not sure Sony will offer the same kinds of upgrades and improvements to the camera that RED does.
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I think that's probably putting it quite mildly!

Re the Sigma - 2 things to note - my experience is similar to many others, that its sharpness tails off at 800mm - upto 700mm it's incredibly sharp, but as with many long zooms (Canon HJ40 and HJ18) the last 10% is a bit mushy (relatively). Other thing is that it doesn't focus as close as things like the HJ40, only down to about 6m, which can be problematic at times.

Steve
 
It looks like Dragon sensor will add quite a bit the sensitivity, and once it is in our hands, sensitivity may become water under the bridge. Otherwise, personally I find raw images, higher frame rates, resolution, prerecorded, weight etc. so important that have not thought the F55 at all as a replacement for Red cameras in my wildlife shooting.
 
We have both. We also tested C500 over the last week and if its sensitivity you want then Id say it makes nice images and even when used at 20,00 ISO it was impressive. Sony have not yet finished software for the F55 and Id still say the F55 is the best camera Sony have made to date but its not finished yet so there more to come.

If you want the best feature set, then look no further than Epic. We don't have Dragon yet and are impatiently awaiting our upgrades, from what we know so far what else is there that is better than Dragon ?

Our Epic's get used on every continent in every environment our planet throws at them, they continue to work reliably. Unfortunately one of our cameras fell out of the air some 100 feet landed hard on the ground, wrote off the lens and ariel vehicle it was attached to at the time. Some chunks of aluminium scraped off its base plate and generally was beaten up a bit. The camera still worked fine. Its gone of to Red for checks and new base plate at Red's excellent service department in the UK to get it back to 100%. I don't know of any other camera that would still work after being dropped from that height.
 
This is one place where I think Dragon will really shine. Added resolution, color purity, and dynamic range could be real fun.
 
Having used BOTH cameras for wildlife shooting myself... I used our Epic. Recently, a client asked us to use an F55, so we had to do so as a rental... The F55 gave us a HUGE problem, when the total "joke" viewfinder connection snagged on something in dense brush and then broke the entire connection! Now we had no way to see the image. Well... there went that shoot! Fortunately for us, the Epic was in the truck a mile or so away! (We had TWO options.... EVF and LCD!) Went back to that, and haven't looked back. The Epic is more rugged, it's robust. I think the RAW files out of the Epic are easy to manipulate in post, versus the F55 RAW files. When hiking with an R5 4K back, you need just as much power as an Epic, and perhaps more! I like the ability to have a Redvolt in the handle so that when we do have to swap batteries, we can pull off the Anton Bauer pretty quickly, and replace it without having to power down!

With the new Adaptive Quiet Mode, the Epic is awesome in this environment!
 
I have similar experience to Dave Blackham - our Epics have been in big demand for natural history, I wish that I was able to visit some of the countries they have been to!
Pre-record and +1 Module were sorely needed (and arrived) - waiting eagerly for Dragon
 
Mike Gifford said:
I have similar experience to Dave Blackham - our Epics have been in big demand for natural history, I wish that I was able to visit some of the countries they have been to!
Pre-record and +1 Module were sorely needed (and arrived) - waiting eagerly for Dragon
Click to expand...

That Sony view find connector is a real pain, just imagine rain of a salt water spash in that. Sorry to hear Curt was caught by it.

We had 4 shoots back in in the last couple of days, cant say the condition of kit was pretty, but the Epics had been working very hard for months on different continents in all sorts of conditions. TLC sorted them out, the cameras required a clean only, they all worked on location with out any major issues. Clients are very happy Im pleased to say.

The sensor sensitivity question is relevant but its not a deal breaker for the most part. If your comparing like for like also remember if your using Alexa, F55, of C500 external recording devices are needed for 4k or greater resolution capture so the power question is much less relevant. Also in terms of quantity of data captured all of these cameras are similar, its just more elegant for Epic. They all make nice images, just one of them is more suited for Wildlife than the others.
 
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