EPIC production...

[Cam Crowley]

I put myself up for stage 2 and that cost money. Money that could have been put to other uses. It now appears that wasn't a wise move as there will be little time difference between stage 2 and 3 (which did not require a cash payment) and if I had have known that the Epic Ms would have been produced in the quantities they are going out in (which is only NOW becoming apparent) I could have used the $5000 at stage 2 towards EpicM and gone with stage 3.

All I have ever asked for on this thread is a few details. Not all of us enjoy the constant guessing games. I am an early Red owner - I may not have a serial in the first 100 but I was still there putting a deposit down when most were screaming "scam". And I may not have posted here much because I have other things to do and honestly, it's generally NOT the people with the EPICMs who clutter the boards with meaningless noise just for the sake of postcount.

 

[Elsie N]

Also know that the 1st EPIC-Ms were kept close to us since they are not finished. Neither Fincher nor Soderbergh got theirs because they were filming in Sweden and Hong Kong respectfully.

Jim

Pretty important point. Sometimes I guess we forget that the M, while not a Beta camera, still is an unfinished one. Thanks to the M owners who actually spent above the line so you can make a better camera for the rest of us, whenever they arrive.

 

[Andrew M.]

Everything because of all these beautiful EPIC samples of shots and pictures posted.
And temptation of descriptions of all these features and functions.

I don’t remember when last time I was drooling and salivating so much on anything in the past.

I guess I will go and rent the one, can’t take it anymore....

 

[Cam Crowley]

Cam... you are an early depositor. We know that. Did you want an EPIC-M or EPIC-X? What exactly did I post that gave you the impression you aren't early?

If we do disappoint, which is certainly not our desire, deposits are fully refundable at any time.

Jim

Jim - I replied before I saw your post.

Honestly mate, all I want right now is a bit of information. If you see my above post it may better explain the frustration.

I just need to know a timeframe on these stage deliveries. All I (or anyone else) has to go by is what stage they are and the serial of their RED One. And for people like me who are essential small buisnesses who don't have heaps of cash to throw around, the guessing games are starting to get frustrating.

And sometimes it takes the squeaky wheel to get the grease. I'm just trying to get the right information because as you well know speculation an this board is something of a sport.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

It's been stated that EPIC-M's will be made until the demand has run out. Obviously, we can't stamp a date on that...

I would appreciate confirmation from Jim on this point - does that mean that no EPIC-X cams will ship until all of the existing orders for EPIC-Ms ship? - or are these still considered parallel manufacturing lines?

My original perception was that the -M line was for a handful of carefully pre-screened beta testers. My question is, is this program evolving into something different? Can anyone who qualifies now just hop in line and pay up for an M before the X ships?

I can certainly understand wanting to sell these more expensive units. If the pent-up demand for EPIC warrants the M pricing, RED should capitalize on it. I have no issue with that - I just want to know if there is a benefit to shifting my current X deposit to the M program, in order to receive it before my feature launches on May 23.

Or am I mis-reading what is being stated? (certainly, it wouldn't be the first time....:rolleyes5

 

[Mark Andersen]

Meryem, the answer is no, Epic X will ship as soon as they are ready, which Jim stated as early April or before NAB. It has nothing to do with how many Ms Red delivers. They could deliver Epic Ms late into the year or further as long as folks want them. Although as soon as the Epic X starts rolling out I imagine demand will start to fall for the Epic M.

 

[Elsie N]

Jim, will Epic-M production stop after Epic-X starts shipping?

No.

Jim

I would appreciate confirmation from Jim on this point - does that mean that no EPIC-X cams will ship until all of the existing orders for EPIC-Ms ship? - or are these still considered parallel manufacturing lines?

It appears they are parallel lines. The Epic X line will deliver in the order originally stated.

 

[Imran Farouk]

bare in mind the difference between X's and M's, believe one's machined and the other isn't, different techniques to handling them,

So high chance like Elsie said, parallel
thankfully though I'm sure knowledge from M is transferred onto how X is to be made, making it a not so slow start when it begins

 

[Jannard]

Jim - I replied before I saw your post.

Honestly mate, all I want right now is a bit of information. If you see my above post it may better explain the frustration.

I just need to know a timeframe on these stage deliveries. All I (or anyone else) has to go by is what stage they are and the serial of their RED One. And for people like me who are essential small buisnesses who don't have heaps of cash to throw around, the guessing games are starting to get frustrating.

And sometimes it takes the squeaky wheel to get the grease. I'm just trying to get the right information because as you well know speculation an this board is something of a sport.

Cam... all we can do is:

1. Post as we go along and change as necessary...

2. Don't post anything until we are done.

We have chosen #1. And it still gets us in trouble with frustrated customers. No matter how generous we try to be (don't know of any other trade options existed in this industry before ours)... we can't make everyone happy, apparently.

We have been posting our best updates... but let's consider just a few things that need reminding.

We are still pretty new at this.

We changed from having an Asian 3rd party manufacture these to doing it ourselves in the US.

We have added HDRx™ since you put down your deposit... as well as a few other cookies.

The camera needed to change in dimensions.

No camera company, even with 70 years of history, has ever attempted such a leap in capability and form factor... and price.

We have made "Obsolescence Obsolete" real in an ever changing world.

Truth is... most everyone who has tried even a little... has made back their investment in a RED ONE. Any Stage is more than fair. Wildly more than fair if you compare it to anything. Ever.

The only penalty for being a RED customer is time. And if you have a RED ONE, the penalty is not so painful. Fincher is shooting (happily) Girl With the Dragon Tattoo on RED ONE MX while he waits for an EPIC. If he is OK...

Jim

 

[Joseph Hutson]

I would appreciate confirmation from Jim on this point - does that mean that no EPIC-X cams will ship until all of the existing orders for EPIC-Ms ship?

...

We'll continue to make EPIC-Ms until EPIC-X production begins... maybe even after. The love for the machined body with rental companies and others really surprised us.

Jim

 

[jimhare]

We're behind you Jim! I learned a lot from the first round with the Red 1 and this time round will sit back until you say it's ready, and if that changes then it changes.

I have had my money there for a year, and will leave it there another year if needed.

You told us upfront everything may change and as far as I can see it has changed for the better!

See you at NAB for the big surprise!

Jim

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Truth is... most everyone who has tried even a little... has made back their investment in a RED ONE. Any Stage is more than fair. Wildly more than fair if you compare it to anything. Ever.

The only penalty for being a RED customer is time. And if you have a RED ONE, the penalty is not so painful.

Complete "amen" to both of these points -

 

[Stacey Spears]

Especially if they think that that queue comes anywhere close to representing one's place in line.

One key element that the user generated stage 2/3 list is missing is that the real queue it is based on delivery date and not serial number. For later serial numbers, the two may align better, but there was a period of time were early adopters were not taking delivery because not everything was implemented. I recall a big change after NAB where many of them started asking for delivery. It was like a mad rush.

 

[Michael Epple]

Is there going to be an email about ordering stage 3 before NAB? If not, does that mean stage 3 is looking more like fall or winter 2011? I know you love giving out time estimates.

 

[Stacey Spears]

Is there going to be an email about ordering stage 3 before NAB? If not, does that mean stage 3 is looking more like fall or winter 2011?

Jim posted this earlier in the thread.

...All EPIC-X orders place at NAB (or before with a Stage) will ship by summer's end 2011.

Not sure what has changed.

Jim

 

[Jeff Coatney]

We not only paid the deposit, but we followed on with the entire Stage 2 balance nearly a year ago. Its not easy to do this- to have Red hold onto our cash for almost a whole year. That's about a $20K deposit in the first national bank of Red. We also thought we'd have the Epic in our hands by now.

While it wasn't easy to part with that cash, I also know that its not easy to build a 35mm 5K digital camera the size of a Hasselblad that can shoot at 120fps-- even when you have all the cash needed to put toward that goal. I know how high-tech gear is made. I know this camera is the bleeding edge of tech. Trust me, I've been tempted to call up Jim and cash in my chips, get a refund.

My wife thinks I'm nuts, but she respects my background and my judgement enough to let this bet ride. I have no idea how I got so lucky to be married to someone like her.

I know I got a fanboy slant to my posts, but honestly, there is nothing in this world that will come between me and getting my hands on that brand new Epic. I've been waiting for twenty years to get the capability that this camera will give me. Its damn hard to do this: the waiting, the wondering, the juggling of cashflow. Now its close. I can taste it.

I think very highly of everyone I've met and talked to at Red. I feel especially close to them even though they don't even know who I am. But I feel a special bond-- a loyalty. I'm not a Peter Jackson or a Stephen Soderbergh, but I feel like they respect my needs as a client with as much attention as the big guys get.

I respect the generosity that Jim has personally extended to us by offering the Stage 2 option. He does not have to do this. In fact, if he were playing by the rulebook written by Sony or Canon or Arri, he would not offer such a gift to his early adopters. Those guys just don't get it-- and that's why they don't have my money sitting in their bank account for a product they haven't even made yet.

Waiting is a sacrifice- and I don't dole out fanboy praise to just anybody. You gotta earn my trust and my business. You gotta show me that you're willing to go as far as I am. I've given up much to follow my bliss- sometimes the road is bumpy- hell, sometimes there's no road at all. Maybe I see that same kind of crazy dedication in Jim, Jarred, Graeme, Deanan and the rest of the Red team. I'm a 4 o'clock in the morning guy too, and I dig that about these guys.

You know I just can't figure Jim out-- he could be anywhere in the world doing whatever the hell he wants and he spends his time staying up all hours making my dream camera. That's MY camera he's making. That gets my attention. The very least I can do is say "thank you" the only way I can-- with my business.

 

[Jason Wingrove]

You know I just can't figure Jim out-- he could be anywhere in the world doing whatever the hell he wants and he spends his time staying up all hours making my dream camera. That's MY camera he's making. That gets my attention. The very least I can do is say "thank you" the only way I can-- with my business.

impressive post Jeff.

jas

 

[Gregory Karydis]

To add to Jeff's point, Jim could be anywhere doing anything but instead he is here trying to put our minds at ease.

With RED deposits have always been fully refundable no questions asked (correct me if I am wrong) but the point is we the end users have agreed to be part of an evolving process. There is an opt-out solution at any time (not usually offered in any industry in the world) so it is up to each and everyone of us to decide what to do while accepting that circumstances may change within the next 24 hours.

What I am trying to say is that frustration and uncertainty are all part of the mix.
We could've waited it out until production was ready but...
We love RED for what it is and what it is is "making obsolescence obsolete" by any means!

PS. I can't help it if I sound a bit like a fanboy but I have worked as hard as I believe my powers allow me so I could make that deposit as well as to cover the entire amount of an Epic-M and an Epic-X and I feel lucky for being allowed to be a part of all this.

 

[Cam Crowley]

Great post Jeff

I respect what RED is doing and what they have achieved. And it is great what Jim has done for the early adopters in terms of trade ins and freebies.

But the success that RED has had in the industry is largely because of the dogged determination of the early adopters to get the cameras onto productions and RED footage into post houses. And as a lot of the earlier adopters know, we copped a fair bit of crap from sections of the industry in the early days. As I was in the position of having one of the early cameras to reach Australia, I spent the first 6 months working with DPs and some high end post houses to give them their first RED experience and to make it my business to know what I was talking about in terms of the cameras capabilities on-set as well as in the post environment. Most of this early work was unpaid but I got the satisfaction in knowing that I was helping to 'turn-on' the industry in terms of the RED way of doing things.

3 years on, the cameras have more than paid for themselves and some of those free jobs turned into paid jobs and some even turned into full feature films that my business was able to supply equipment to. I have loved the ride and it may not seem like it now, but I have been patient in waiting for the next turn of events ie: EPIC X.

So the point you wonder. I'm getting to it!!

If I had the information I have now I would have - by hook or by crook - jumped at the chance to get an EPIC M, to be the earliest possible adopter in this country and once again turn as many people on to the RED way of doing things. There are still people out there who are yet to be convinced and I'm pretty confident that EPIC will have them seeing the light. But I didn't have that information and as I stated previously, it is only NOW becoming apparent that the EPICM program is indeed producing many more cameras than were originally spoken about. It's about the need for information and not having to constantly read between the lines of speculation.

I don't want want my stage 2 deposit back. In fact the full amount is sitting in my account waiting for my EPIC X. And patiently I will wait. That still doesn't stop people from asking me when I will have my EPIC available - I tell them hopefully April but right now it's anyones guess.

All I am seeking is some clarification and as things are seemingly getting down to the wire in terms of delivery, I would be happy just knowing a date when the pre-NAB announcement about stage 2 delivery/package details will come. At least I can tell people something rather than speculate.

I apologise if any of my posts seemed combative or impatient - sometimes you have to throw a curveball just to be noticed around here.

Respectfully

Cam

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Cam... all we can do is:

We changed from having an Asian 3rd party manufacture these to doing it ourselves in the US.

A move I am very happy about.

The only penalty for being a RED customer is time. And if you have a RED ONE, the penalty is not so painful. Fincher is shooting (happily) Girl With the Dragon Tattoo on RED ONE MX while he waits for an EPIC. If he is OK...

Although I am not Stage 2 and therefore do not have a deposit down, I can say I am happy enough to wait as R1 MX is still plenty capable for a lot of what I do. And if I did have a deposit down, I would only have done it with no expectation on delivery. For no other reason than RED is still evolving, the task at hand is difficult, and because the deal is RED has opened the development doors to us. We get to see the setbacks, the advances, the excitement, the disappointment, the passion, etc. When we put our money down, we know the drill. Delivery of the product is subject to change. Now, for some that is a mantra that doesn't phase them, as they may have the means to ride the wave until it reaches shore. And they want to be at the front of that wave. For everyone else, it seems RED is willing to refund the money if one determines they can no longer ride the wave. If that wasn't the case, I'd probably be disappointed in them. But Jim has always had this approach. Back when we put deposits for R1 in 2006, he was willing to give us $1100 back if we didn't want to wait, 10% interest on our investment.

So, frustration is natural. Putting all emotion aside, I would suggest one must look at the business angle. If money is tied up in a deposit and that doesn't make sense anymore for whatever reason, then it must become a business decision. Get out now, risk losing place in line. Same goes for money tied up in EVFs, SSDs, etc. I would like SSDs now, but they simply aren't available. So, I have to accept they will get here when they get here, or pull the money out and try at a later date, hoping that at some point supply and demand will level out and I can just buy them with no delay.

When it comes to people's hard-earned money, I try not to underestimate what each and every dollar means to people. I can understand where some of the frustration is coming from. If you've got several thousand dollars, or in some people's case, even more, tied up in a product that has no hard delivery date, that could lead to some uneasy feelings. The good news is you have options. And my guess is when everyone looks at the options, the best option will still be to keep the money invested, as chances are RED's going to deliver pretty close to what they are estimating this time around.