Epic Mount Leica S Lenses

[Ketch Rossi]

Jacek,

as our communications is Online Forum and I mostly use to talk with fact check methodology

only way is to give people a right example is forward them to use free Internet libraries

something like a Apple Movie Trailers or any similar that can help to achieve right reasoning without any wrong conclusion...

hehe, and this no one I know does it better then you do Sanjin Sure does make it very easy to be informed and
some people do not appreciate in off the time some takes to provide with such info I do, and always try to give and share mine as well

However I do fill that it is important that we always respect and communicate with each other and to others that might come to read,
in the most polite and respectful manner, so that no one gets offended, and or a good thread turns bad

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Sorry, I just meant it as a joke. I know that you are passionate about medium format and Leicas etc. and I respect that- passion is definitely necessary in this industry- I know it first hand:cheers2:
However my professional opinion is that MF lenses are not the best fit to Epic from engineering, optical performance stand point. Add to it the electronic mount offerings coming up and it makes even less sense from practical stand point. I think we all agree here.....
The Leica S- program is an odd duck that I'm sure someone got fired for, and, IMO is a total failure. Go to amazon you can get these cameras, albeit expensive- readily.
It's not a medium format per se, but something in between FF and MF.
My question is- Do we really need another format to deal with?
What is so special that it brings to the table better than Hassy, pentax etc.
I like Leicas bu I've worked and projected lenses for 25 years and seen countless optics so I speak from practical experience. I also listen to DPs and conclude how my findings in projection room relate to results of production.
Trust me Ketch - I'm intimately familiar with this subject matter....
So while it's all good fun there is nothing that these lenses have over R or especially M glass if you want to talk Leicas....

Jacek, I too respect your knowledge and experience -- it's a gazillion times more than mine ....

However, you seem to be implying that S2 lenses won't be optically superior to other electronic mount lenses like Canon, Nikon, etc. And if this is the case, it seems to fly in the face of what so many DP's and lens experts on and off this board believe. Even Shane Hurlbut -- who is professionally affiliated with Canon -- finds that despite some shortcomings in mechanics the Leica R's are very superior to Canon L's for cine work ....

I tend to believe that Leica would improve optics (as mentioned in the excerpt I pasted above) in the S series. Maybe not, but it really seems like some R&D have gone into these lenses.

Yes, Leica has a reputation and history that gives people irrational, emotional responses -- but from a lot of what I've read, there is also empirical evidence to support their S (and M) line being superior to other still lenses.

And in terms of the S not being better than M or R -- that may be, but M lenses won't unfortunately work on Epic ... and as you know, R lenses are out of production and difficult to find in quality/quantity.

Remember, the initial purpose of this thread was to discuss how S lenses would be an interesting possibility and good value on Epic because of their high optical quality and forward compatibility with future Epic models. At $40-50,000 for the 7 lens set -- if their optical performance rivals high end cine lenses .... I actually think they are a good value.

Particularly for those who will have S2's already! :tongue_smilie:

My hope is that they would be optics of highest quality -- rivaling Optimo, Panavision, Cooke and UP/MP -- just with a little less speed (but more coverage).

Maybe it's a "fantasy" as you say, but hopefully Jarred and the guys will finish the S mount soon and we can do some tests ;-)

Anthony

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

hehe, and this no one I know does it better then you do Sanjin Sure does make it very easy to be informed and
some people do not appreciate in off the time some takes to provide with such info I do, and always try to give and share mine as well

However I do fill that it is important that we always respect and communicate with each other and to others that might come to read,
in the most polite and respectful manner, so that no one gets offended, and or a good thread turns bad

Ketch, you are right about polite and respectful manner

but the reason that Jacek has got a joke from me just because he made a bad joke about Leica

with his talking to people that Leica made stupid and a sort of doom decision to go with S2 system that is absolutely not true.

The Leica S- program is an odd duck that I'm sure someone got fired for, and, IMO is a total failure.

You can like it or not but has nothing to do with the real fact that S2 system is far superior than any other still photography digital AF system introduced till present.

Actually only the pictures can talk about that quality by themselves the best.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

You can like it or not but has nothing to do with the real fact that S2 system is far superior than any other still photography digital AF system introduced till present.

Actually only the pictures can talk about that quality by themselves the best.

Sanjin, yes so far I have been very impressed by the overall quality of images I've seen shot with S lenses and S2 -- though I realize it's hard to fully evaluate from compressed jpegs posted online.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Magic bullet...

Magic bullet...

Or actually not so much....
It's very simple really:
Use lens that was designed for the particular format.
In case of R1 /Epic that will be APSc. Optical design is a series of compromises and the larger the format (among other things)the bigger the compromises.
Matched format lenses will give you the best combination of speed, size, performance and price.
If you put medium format (lens) on a S35 imager you are making several sacrifices:
1.Modern (still)lenses have flat field of view so the stills have sharp corners. In order to achieve this the center performance is compromised. Additionally because of bigger pixel size on MF imagers the CoC on MF lenses can be larger so even with compromised center performance it still looks good. But since the Coc was not matched to the smaller pixels on smaller imagers the compromises are more evident with smaller pixels.
If you did not get all this here is the lowdown:
Large format lenses will generally look softer on smaller imagers(sensors)
2. the lenses are bigger and heavier
3. the lenses are slower
4. you pay more
I've blown that "sweet spot " urban legend in the projection room soooo many times it's not even exciting any more....:smile:

 

[Ketch Rossi]

I'm with you no doubt Jacek, that each manufacturer creates and designs their lenses particularly and specifically for their
cameras, Sensor type, type of mount, depth of senor placement etc.

However it is so much fun to be able to mix and match

 

[AnthonyFlores]

I'm with you no doubt Jacek, that each manufacturer creates and designs their lenses particularly and specifically for their
cameras, Sensor type, type of mount, depth of senor placement etc.

However it is so much fun to be able to mix and match

And don't forget we are talking about LEICA!!!!!!!!!! The magical brand that sprinkles pixy dust all over your footage and makes it perfect -- free of distortion, CA, and all other defects!!!:sarcasm:

But seriously, if any brand of lens can be interchanged and work with different sensors -- it's Leica. I have heard of Leica lenses looking great on Canon, Nikon, Panasonic and other brands ... and this is not including Leica glass being used in Panavision lenses and on so many different cameras/sensors in the film world.

While I don't doubt what Jacek says is true -- I have a feeling Leica S glass will look better on the Epic S35 or FF than many other options, including others in that same price range.

Again, can't wait to see the footage. That will be the real test

I know Nikon and Canon mounts are much higher priority because so many people have those lenses, but I hope the S mount soon follows so we can see the results.

 

[Brian Petrie]

I think it really boils down to how well the Epic's AF system works because currently there are no AF prime cine lenses. So if the AF system is absolutly unbelieveable and we want to use it as much as possible; well then the Leica S lenses may be one of the best/closest to cine standards lens set out there that does AF (well untill Red releases their electronic lenses; they'll be made to cine standards, however, their glass may not be as good as Leica's but no point in arguing that now) Anyways, some may see this mount as a necessity while others may see it as a waste, but who cares more options are always better. Not to mention, if you tell me you like this lens or I only use "X" lenses just because; well that's your opinion and you're entitled to that so who's to argue.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Ray,

Haven't heard anything about it in a while -- there are several issues to consider, 1st - Canon and Nikon were way higher priority and Nikon is still being finished.

2nd - which gets into the limitation of these lenses, is that they are slow relative to most 35mm lenses (f2.5 for most, though the 180mm is f3.5 and the 30mm is f2.8) So they will be more relevant when the FF and larger sensor versions are released. Despite their stellar performance, most would consider them too slow to be worth the price difference between Canon, Nikon or even most M glass.

So hopefully the downsides are clear as well - speed, and price. I've used them before, they are AMAZING - not just performance but the build quality, focus rotation and so on is just unreal. I personally they would be the best still lens for manually focusing, or at least better than anything I've seen.

Ultimately, I hope the mount is made but I understand why no one at Red is rushing to make one at this moment (I could be wrong, Red could surprise us just like they did with the M mount). Because there are, after all, much bigger fish to fry and the market for the Leica S mount is still quite small.

Hope that helps.