Epic Mount Leica S Lenses

[AnthonyFlores]

After seeing the Epic in action -- with the Canon L-lens w/autofocus -- I was pretty blown away.

Yet, in speaking to some experienced members of this board, I've heard it's in the plans to have an Epic mount that will work for the new Leica-S lenses.

More info about them here:

http://s.leica-camera.com/assets/downloads/technical-data/S-Lenses-Technical-data-en.pdf

Of course, Leica lenses are legendary. Yet their new Cine line of lenses are out of reach for most people at $20,000+ per lens.

Fortunately, there are some really cool things about these S lenses ...

- They are reasonably priced (for Leicas!) and much cheaper than the Cine line ...

- They will be able to take advantage of the Epic in autofocus mode, yet their large barrel size/rotation make them better than other still lenses for manual cinema focus ...

- Perhaps best of all, they not only cover the Epic 5k sensor, Epic FF35 sensor ... they will even work with the coming Epic 645 model! For me, it makes so much sense to invest in lenses that will be workable on both current and future Red models.

The main drawbacks are -- they are still not cheap at $5,000-$8,000 without true cinema markings. And they are not super fast -- most are 2.5 and the 180mm is 3.5.

Still, this is really fast for medium format lenses, and when you consider that it's superior glass to what's used in Zeiss CP2's at around 2.1 speed, and $4,000-$5,000 each -- the Leicas seem like a better long-term investment. (Yes, I understand that is MY opinion.)

I hope Leica is busy working on additional focal lengths for the set -- and since these are already out in the wild, I hope Red is working on a mount that will be able to use these amazing lenses. If not at Stage 2 release, hopefully at least by Stage 3 or 4. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease.

I know Jim is a big Leica fan -- let's please support these amazing lenses on the Epic!!! :drool5:

Anthony

 

[G Lap]

Superb lenses, yes, but in short supply as demand exceeds supply at the moment.

These are MF lenses though, with an image circle of 54mm designed to cover a 45mm x 30mm sensor, so there is a 0.8 crop factor (compared to FF35) to take into account. So the 120mm equates to a 96mm on FF35 and a 74mm on S35. As you say, f/2.5 is fast for MF.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Thanks George, yes also those like Ketch (thanks to Ketch for making me aware of these lenses and their coverage!) tell me Leica has plans for more focal lengths -- as currently they are far from being a complete "set." But I've read they have a 24mm, 50mm, and 100mm planned -- hopefully for next year.

That would give their set 24, 35, 50, 70, 100, 120, 180 in MF -- or the FF equivalent of 19mm, 28mm, 40mm, 56mm, 80mm, 96mm, and 144mm. If they can complete this set in 2011 I think it will be a great option for Epic users, especially those who plan to upgrade to larger sensor Epic models.

Here is another comment about the lenses from David Farkas, who went to the factory in Germany and spoke to the actual designer at Leica:

-----------------------------------------------------------

S Lenses


Not to get ahead of myself, but the S lenses are probably the finest optics I have ever had the pleasure of shooting with. Keep in mind that I am used to the wonderful Leica M glass in my current system, and previously used the best R glass for my R9/DMR. The S lenses are better. Many of the designs for the S lenses originated with R designs. The 35mm f/2.5 Summarit-S ASPH is based on the 19mm Elmarit-R (a lens that I loved on my DMR), but includes an asphere in the front optical group to reduce aberrations. The 120mm f/2.5 APO Macro-Summarit-S used the incredible 100mm APO-Macro-Elmarit-R as a foundation, but incorporated a floating element to optimize performance at all distances from close-focus to infinity (and increased maximum aperture by 1/2 a stop to boot). The 180mm f/3.5 APO-Tele-Elmar-S owes its heritage to the legendary 180mm APO-Summicron-R. Contrary to the other three lenses, the 70mm f/2.5 Summarit-S ASPH is an entirely new design, but has a similar signature Karbe modified double gauss design like the 50 Summilux-M ASPH. Of course, the 70mm is better. As Peter explained, the S lenses are the best lenses that Leica has ever made, for any system. Strong words for an optics designer who is typically measured and conservative in his statements.


Many didn't want to buy into Leica's claims of perfect optical performance which require no software correction. Leica spoke of lenses with no vignetting, no visible distortion, sharpness across the frame, no CA, no spherical aberrations, no coma, no astigmatism, and usability at any distance and at any aperture. Then, to top it all off, they'd offer beautiful Leica-like rendering as well. These lofty claims seemed too good to be true. Well, after my testing, I can safely say that the claims are all true and there wasn't any exaggeration whatsoever. The lenses really are that good. Better than anything I've ever shot with. I'm amazed at the crisp rendering of foreground details with perfect, buttery bokeh in the background. Leica's optics designers have truly achieved a balance of technical perfection and exquisite character, which is not an easy task.


One of my first questions for Peter related to the future of the S System. Was Leica planning on a larger sensor down the road and would the lenses accommodate such a sensor? The answer was that no, the Leica Pro Format of 30x45mm was the limit, as the lenses only have an image circle of 54mm. This got me to wondering (and asking) why the lens mount is so large and what the limits are with 30x45mm. The lens mount is as wide as it is in order to allow for faster aperture, exotic lenses. The teaser here was that the 100mm portrait lens might actually be f/2 or even f/1.8. Not too shabby for a medium format lens. Of course, Hassy had their 110mm f/2 FE lens that is still sought after today. Now imagine what a modern Leica ASPH and/or APO design could accomplish. Yum.


With the 6µm pixel pitch of the S2's sensor the lenses need to be able to resolve 83 lp/mm and I inquired if this was a challenge. This wasn't my first time conversing with Peter. I should have known better than to ask him a question like this. He got that "are you joking?" look on his face, grinned and said in no uncertain words that 80 lp/mm is not a problem, even at full aperture. He pointed out that the S lenses are capable of resolving 40 lp/mm at 80% contrast, wide-open, and estimated that 80 lp/mm could be resolved at about 60% contrast. So, the lenses clearly outresolve the current sensor. What about future generations? Where is the practical pixel limit for 30x45mm? Many have postulated that the next big advance in CCD sensor tech will be a 5µm pixel architecture with a close-to 100% fill rate. This would result in a 54MP sensor at 30x45mm, but with this pixel size, the lenses would need to resolve 100 lp/mm. Will the S lenses be up to the task? Again, Peter flashed his signature grin and casually said that 100 lp/mm would be no problem. In fact, he felt the S lenses could resolve around 50% contrast at this frequency. No small claim, to be sure. My mind had already moved on to the next inevitable question. What exactly is the resolution of the S glass? Peter answered that he didn't know the exact figure, but guessed that the number would be between 200-300 lp/mm. That's a big number and a whole lot of detail.


The primary goal for the S lenses was quite literally to design a new standard in optics. While other companies are looking to software to "fix" images in post processing, Leica wanted to achieve superior quality with fewer aberrations and without relying on digital processing. Take one look at the published MTF charts of the new S lenses and you can get an idea of just how good they are. But, technical perfection and high-resolving power weren't the only criteria. Peter explained that pleasing bokeh was also a key design goal. Spherical aberrations, coma, decentering, and aperture blade configuration all affect bokeh, so eliminating or reducing aberrations actually make for smoother, more pleasing bokeh. I found this interesting as popular opinion usually identifies modern ASPH designs as "clinical" while older designs, with more aberrations, are valued for their delectable bokeh. While many might argue this point to death, I can't disagree with empirical evidence. After shooting the S lenses wide open, I think it's safe to say that Peter has a pretty good idea what he's talking about – the out of focus areas are exquisite.


Grinning again, he actually made a point to tell us that we should only shoot his lenses wide open. Stopping down is only for increased depth-of-field. In fact, Peter projected (using the Pradovit-D 1200) some photos he took with the S2 back in the Spring while on a walk through the woods to illustrate his point. Aside from being an authority on optical design, Peter is a formally trained photographer and knows how to use his products pretty darn well. Phil joked that Leica should come out with a Noctilux f/0.95 with no aperture ring that only shot wide-open. Peter loved this idea and went on to explain how light control could be achieved using two circular polarizing filters inside the lens. And while I sincerely doubt such a lens ever coming out of Solms, we all got a kick out of Peter's enthusiasm and passion.
---------------------------------------------------
Source: http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2009/11/leica-s2-review-test-shooting-in.html

 

[Christopher Barrett]

These are MF lenses though, with an image circle of 54mm designed to cover a 45mm x 30mm sensor, so there is a 0.8 crop factor (compared to FF35) to take into account. So the 120mm equates to a 96mm on FF35 and a 74mm on S35. As you say, f/2.5 is fast for MF.

To clarify... while the 120mm on the S2 would be comparable to a 74 on S35, that's really only relevant if you're trying to compare cameras... for example "I shot this still on the S2 with the 120, what lens do I need to get the same shot on the R1?"

However, the 120mm fitted to the Epic would yield the same composition as any other 120mm lens regardless of the fact that it can cover a larger sensor.

Just in case there was any confusion,
CB

PS, I would be amazed to see a 24. The only lenses that wide that cover medium format are view camera lenses from Schneider and Rodenstock.

 

[C.H.Haskell]

I have been following the leica S2glass for a little while (thanks Ketch) and I have been holding off until I know for sure there is going to be a S mount for the EPIC, would love to hear something from RED about the development of this mount, if will it come after the nikon mount etc. Obviously a MF EPIC and this glass would mate very well but I would absolutely love to get a head start. Cheers.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

When I last visited Jarred at RED STUDIOS Hollywood, I presented him with the question of my desire for a Leica S2 Mount on Epic,
since the S2 Glass is just nothing short of Fantastic, and not only by its users but by Leica's own announcement is the best glass ever
produced for Still Photography, and as we will have couple of Leica's S2 at the new Studios in Italy, it is only natural that we want to
use this glass on all our Epic cameras, S35, FF and off course my favorite, the Epic 645, so when Jarred told me that they do plan to
make a Leica S2 Mount for Epic, I was very Happy in deed

 

[Felix K.]

I can feel Sanjin coming closer to this thread...

 

[AnthonyFlores]

To clarify... while the 120mm on the S2 would be comparable to a 74 on S35, that's really only relevant if you're trying to compare cameras... for example "I shot this still on the S2 with the 120, what lens do I need to get the same shot on the R1?"

However, the 120mm fitted to the Epic would yield the same composition as any other 120mm lens regardless of the fact that it can cover a larger sensor.

Just in case there was any confusion,
CB

PS, I would be amazed to see a 24. The only lenses that wide that cover medium format are view camera lenses from Schneider and Rodenstock.

Christopher, I have read they have a 24mm in the works from several sources. However, they did not indicate whether it would be the same speed as the others. I imagine it would be very difficult to produce a MF 24mm f2.5 lens .... but I'm hopeful.

 

[Christopher Barrett]

That would be friggin awesome!

 

[G Lap]

To clarify... while the 120mm on the S2 would be comparable to a 74 on S35, that's really only relevant if you're trying to compare cameras... for example "I shot this still on the S2 with the 120, what lens do I need to get the same shot on the R1?"

However, the 120mm fitted to the Epic would yield the same composition as any other 120mm lens regardless of the fact that it can cover a larger sensor.

Just in case there was any confusion, CB............

Indeed, no confusion here.

.......so when Jarred told me that they do plan to make a Leica S2 Mount for Epic, I was very Happy in deed

I hadn't heard that before Ketch, but if it comes to fruition it will be welcome news indeed.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

funny thread

funny thread

you guys crack me up- I guess there are no limits to fantasizing and there is nothing wrong with that .
But you also must realize that there is zero practical advantage from doing this while electronic mounts are to be offered for all major name brands.
Oh well, keep going, I need a good laugh every once in a while...:wink5:

 

[Ketch Rossi]

you guys crack me up- I guess there are no limits to fantasizing and there is nothing wrong with that .
But you also must realize that there is zero practical advantage from doing this while electronic mounts are to be offered for all major name brands.
Oh well, keep going, I need a good laugh every once in a while...:wink5:

Jacek you make great products and respect your opinions but some times I think you really crack me up with some of your replays

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

all good fun

all good fun

Sorry, I just meant it as a joke. I know that you are passionate about medium format and Leicas etc. and I respect that- passion is definitely necessary in this industry- I know it first hand:cheers2:
However my professional opinion is that MF lenses are not the best fit to Epic from engineering, optical performance stand point. Add to it the electronic mount offerings coming up and it makes even less sense from practical stand point. I think we all agree here.....
The Leica S- program is an odd duck that I'm sure someone got fired for, and, IMO is a total failure. Go to amazon you can get these cameras, albeit expensive- readily.
It's not a medium format per se, but something in between FF and MF.
My question is- Do we really need another format to deal with?
What is so special that it brings to the table better than Hassy, pentax etc.
I like Leicas bu I've worked and projected lenses for 25 years and seen countless optics so I speak from practical experience. I also listen to DPs and conclude how my findings in projection room relate to results of production.
Trust me Ketch - I'm intimately familiar with this subject matter....
So while it's all good fun there is nothing that these lenses have over R or especially M glass if you want to talk Leicas....

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Hehe, all good here Jacek, I know were you are coming from and surely respect your professional opinion,
however I fill that while not only the Leica S2 series MF Glass but any MF glass might not be the best first choice for the S35 and or
FF Epic, it is definitely something I do look forward in using with what will become my camera of choice for Still work, and that is
the Epic 645

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

I do look forward in using with what will become my camera of choice for Still work, and that is
the Epic 645

I'm pretty sure that Leica S will vignette on Epic 645:thumbdown:
That's what I'm talking about- odd duck

 

[Ketch Rossi]

I'm pretty sure that Leica S will vignette on Epic 645:thumbdown:
That's what I'm talking about- odd duck

Well actually with the Leica S2 sensor size @ 30x45 vs. the Epic 645 @ 56x42 it will hehe.
But while suing the same surface of the Epic 645 Sensor as the Leica S2 then you still have the 30x45 area fully covered, just crop and play

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Your right Ketch

Your right Ketch

IT will vignette- you have some psychic powers apparently Ketch.....

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I am very carefully monitoring this tread and to say that is pretty good decision to bring electronically enabled Leica-S2 mount for Epic.

Also sometimes Jacek doesn't know what he is talking about.

Maybe so often is too hot for him there in Califorina :smilielol5:.

Leica decided to go with S2 size 30x45 because by the lens optical calculation is a format that is

the best suited for building lenses that can have a minimum or even not at all any of lateral aberrations.

Speed is not so important there with Leica S2 lenses because today's and also future sensors are

pretty good with high ISO performance.

For example you have a lot of unexpected lateral CA, (by aspherical elements provoked) flares and lens ghosting even with Zeiss Master Primes.

Watch Apple movie trailers, check it out technical lens specs with IMDb pro site and conclude for yourself.

The latest example of lateral CA with Zeiss Master Primes you can see in the trailer from "True Grit (2010)" by Coen Brothers

shot by Roger Deakins BSC, ASC

True Grit trailer>>>

Or another latest example of lens lateral CA with MPs is Terence Malick's "The Tree of Life"

shot by Emmanuel Lubezki ASC, AMC.

Btw, the newest Leica S2 lenses is the set less prone to any sort of lateral lens aberration.

Actually they are all lens masterpieces.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

not native speaker-no excuse

not native speaker-no excuse

Also sometimes Jacek doesn't know what he is talking about.

Maybe so often is too hot for him there in Califorina :smilielol5:.

[/URL][/B][/I][/U]

This borders on rude Sanjin FYI. I have analized enough lenses in my time and consulted with plenty of optical designers to know how completely unfounded your statements are. Most of them anyway....
You find this random stuff online, post it, and this is supposed to make you an expert...really, REALLY!!!!!
I'll stop now:001_tongue:

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Jacek,

as our communications is Online Forum and I mostly use to talk with fact check methodology

only way is to give people a right example is forward them to use free Internet libraries

something like a Apple Movie Trailers or any similar that can help to achieve right reasoning without any wrong conclusion...