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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

EPIC FAN NOISE - HEARTBREAKING DURING INTERVIEW

John Marchant said:
To be a little more scientific, here are a couple of scenarios.

35% fan speed at room temperature. It just can't quite avoid the temps peaking. I often use 38% on long takes - I'll graph this when I get more time

epicm35fan.jpg



And at 25% (on a scarlet, as our EPIC-M is limited to 35%) things get ugly fast. 25% is for short takes only, without a doubt.

scarletx25fan.jpg



What's worth noting is that reducing fan speed to reduce noise is marginally a game of diminishing returns. There's a smaller noise difference between 35% and 25% than there is between 60% and 50% for example. Compromising to 30% not 25% could double your safe record time for very little harm to the sound dept.

fan%20loudness.jpg



Just as significantly we should all bear in mind that sound dissipates on an inverse square rule.
ie. its possible in an intimate scenario that moving the camera position only a very small amount relative to mics will make a disproportionate improvement to the intrusion. Getting the mic 15 inches away rather than 18 and the camera 7 feet away not 6 could just make all the difference.


On another note, I learned today that 'auto' doesn't ride the fan setting up and down during record. I thought it did, but it appears only to 'thermostat' the camera in standby mode. Is that right? When I've another spare second I need to rtfm on that one.
Click to expand...

I figured someone would make a graph! The EPic one looks about right- I usually set fan to 38-40% and have not had anyone complain. Small rooms, quiet interviews, etc. It only takes about a minute to cool down enough for another relatively long take. I make a habit of cutting every half hour or so just to protect the clip anyway. Being able to roll uninterrupted for 45 minutes at 5K resolution shooting RAW and then having to cut for a minute is not really an issue- it's actually quite an achievement. With film we were limited to 11 minutes before a reload. This is WAY better!
 
Adrian T. said:
I know that. What's your conclusion?
I still stand by the fact that 1.5dB is not much of a noise reduction.
Click to expand...
A decrease of 6 dB means 'half as loud'.

-1 dB means about a 12% decrease in SPL
-3 dB means about a 40% decrease in SPL

So, if that's your definition of 'not much', fine.
 
Would be great to hear RED chime in here and respond to this thread. The guys listen and respect user feedback so I'm sure they're working on these issues!

Still frustrated and feel audio on Epic/Scarlet is a step backwards from our RED One which we used for years to shoot hundreds of interviews without any real issues.

Scott
 
Les C. said:
A decrease of 6 dB means 'half as loud'.

-1 dB means about a 12% decrease in SPL
-3 dB means about a 40% decrease in SPL

So, if that's your definition of 'not much', fine.
Click to expand...

Your math is not quite correct.

linearly spoken, -1 dB is -11%, -3 dB is -29%, -6 dB is -50%.
-1.5 dB is -16%. And in my opinion and experience, that's "not much". :wink5:
 
I only made a small point that the fan guard causes some noise in its own right. Nothing to get worked up about :)

Pay attention to my little graphs if you like though, there's some value there :beer:
 
Last edited:
Please be more respectful to monkeys, they are beautiful creatures. Aloha
Click to expand...

:-) Here in Charm City we are all Monkeys. The camera monkeys are prima donnas, the Art monkeys will fuck you every time, The G&E monkeys are actual monkeys, etc. The sound monkeys have a traditionally smaller tribe than the rest and are quiet and reclusive.

Nick
 
RED MX would have served you a treat. It's why i have hung onto one of mine. Still a great camera, and does exactly what i want it to do.
 
I am really quite surprised by aspects of this thread. I set the fan at 38 - 40 per cent recording and really have had no problems at all recording lengthy interviews in all sorts of conditions.
 
Tom Visser said:
First off, as a sound mixer, I can appreciate a thread that deals with the impact of this camera on sound. Secondly, set life is a cooperative collaboration between different departments and armed with some of the information I've learned here, it will certainly allow me to approach problem solving with some additional 2nd hand experience. Although I would prefer to work with others who share an open and respectful view of each others' trades, at the end of the day I'm coming in as a professional to ply my trade and not have a happy hand holding moment with those around me. I'm going to tell it like it is, if it is too loud, it is too loud. I don't care how much the camera has improved or will be improving. My yardstick is not graduated for firmware versions. Of course I'll apply the tools at my disposal to minimize issues or find creative solutions, but one of the things you won't find me doing is to making suggestions to the camera department on set as how to operate their equipment. That is not my responsibility nor my place.

So, here is the thought that has occurred to me in helping to fix this issue. The challenge as I see it is to keep the required velocity of air moving over the camera's electronics to prevent the camera's logic from kicking the fan up to unworkable speeds, probably in the 35 to 50% range, depending on the distance of the camera to subject, framing, room, etc... The main issue or failure is depending on the small circumference built in fan to provide this air. I've seen installations in projection booths or equipment closets that have to deal with a similar excavation of hot air to keep the equipment running. Would anyone be up for trying a remotely placed larger capacity fan with cooling tubes? Here is a company that makes a product specifically designed to meet certain acoustic targets:
http://www.activethermal.com/page24.html

Please be more respectful to monkeys, they are beautiful creatures. Aloha
Click to expand...

What a cool post. I'd hire you any day. No sarcasm, I just mean it.
 
SOOOOOO USEFUL!!!! THANKS MUCH!!!!!

John Marchant said:
To be a little more scientific, here are a couple of scenarios.

35% fan speed at room temperature. It just can't quite avoid the temps peaking. I often use 38% on long takes - I'll graph this when I get more time

epicm35fan.jpg



And at 25% (on a scarlet, as our EPIC-M is limited to 35%) things get ugly fast. 25% is for short takes only, without a doubt.

scarletx25fan.jpg



What's worth noting is that reducing fan speed to reduce noise is marginally a game of diminishing returns. There's a smaller noise difference between 35% and 25% than there is between 60% and 50% for example. Compromising to 30% not 25% could double your safe record time for very little harm to the sound dept.

fan%20loudness.jpg



Just as significantly we should all bear in mind that sound dissipates on an inverse square rule.
ie. its possible in an intimate scenario that moving the camera position only a very small amount relative to mics will make a disproportionate improvement to the intrusion. Getting the mic 15 inches away rather than 18 and the camera 7 feet away not 6 could just make all the difference.


On another note, I learned today that 'auto' doesn't ride the fan setting up and down during record. I thought it did, but it appears only to 'thermostat' the camera in standby mode. Is that right? When I've another spare second I need to rtfm on that one.
Click to expand...
 
I have a similar fan story. I was filming a film premier, during the "thank" speech it was a little comfortable with my leaf blower. :)

If I could turn the fan noise off, the heat would go up, probably not high enough to damage anything in a temperate room but probably enough to mess with my blackshade, possible introducing more noise. Since it's a stage lit theater, I'll naturally have a lot of blacks already. So don't take your "leaf blower" to uncontrolled events or just deal with it?

Yaque Silva-Doyle said:
My experience is that setting the camera manually to an artificially low setting creates a situation where the camera is not cooling off enough and has to over compensate later. This is what you experienced. In the future you might sacrifice a touch more of the quite for sustained fan level.
Setting the fan to low auto is usually sufficient if the camera is not way to close to the mike. This will insure that the camera does not have to bump up the fan mid take.

If anyone else has thoughts on this it might be helpful. Setting the camera at auto seems to work just fine and seems to have perfectly except able noise level.
Click to expand...
 
Nick Gardner said:
If the sound guy is complaining about the fan noise while rolling, get a new sound guy. Seriously. Epic with the fan set where it should be so it doesn't overheat is quieter than most film cameras ever made. If the sound monkey is using a shotgun mike close to the talent, as they should be in an interview, you will never hear the camera, or if you do, it will be so far under that it's a non issue.
Click to expand...
"Sound monkey"?

This is an extraordinarily ignorant attitude. I don't care if you're using a $5000 Schoeps CMIT2 digital shotgun, there's only so much you can do when there's loud noises in the room. The explanation I generally give to ignorant crew personnel is, "the name of the job is location sound mixer. We record the location -- not just the actor."

This would be no different than if someone were to shine a 2000-watt light on the background. Could you remove that by adding a dozen more lights? Probably not completely. It'd be a lot easier just to turn it off. Contamination is contamination, whether it's light or sound.

As much as I try to conduct myself as a professional and treat others with respect, if somebody called me a "monkey" in a situation like this, I'd kill my power and wheel my entire sound cart off the set, get in my truck, and go home.

I'd be very curious to check a sound level meter on all the current cameras and see how their physical noise level reads in run mode, after (say) 10 continuous minutes in a room at about 80 degrees. The noisiest film cameras I've used (and I've encountered quite a few) were Movicams, typically with Mitchell movements, and when those were poorly adjusted, I seem to recall they put out about 35dB of noise, which is quite a bit. You can't hear it very well from 10 feet away, unless you're in a room with hard reflective walls.

In truth, lavs placed relatively close to the actor's mouths will eliminate most of the room noise under bad conditions. They don't sound "real," since you lose the acoustic sense of space, but that would be my choice in a difficult environment. Directional lavs can be more effective, but are problematic in terms of mounting and wind sensitivity.
 
It's pretty ironic that back in the day RED ONE was more or less falsely accused of overheating -- and now Epics and Scarlets are suffering from heat-related problems. I would not be surprised to see a third-party manufacturer announce a cooling solution soonish. It's bound to add some bulk to the camera body but I'm sure documentary filmmakers and others who need long takes won't mind at all.
 
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