EPIC FAN NOISE - HEARTBREAKING DURING INTERVIEW

[Nick Gardner]

@ Nick, I have had no reason to change from factory settings. I have used a clients camera and had the "hairdrier" in the middle of the take, because the sound guy had insisted they turn the fans down on a previous job. That's sounds fault for not understanding what the hell they are asking for.

A 'non-issue' to camera could mean the world to sound.

That's great, but if sound really thinks it's a problem, and they have never sat though a mix, and don't understand the difference between being able to hear something when the room is dead silent, and having something so far under the person speaking that it doesn't matter, then yeah they should get a different job. Things like putting a Lav on a guy when you are already booming is the kind of shit that lets you hear the camera. There is no reason to do that shit unless the producer got burned by a lousy sound guy in the past so he insists on it.

You wouldn't be happy with a slight boom shadow in the shot halfway through a long take, would you?

I wouldn't care if there was a boom shadow that was out of frame - that is the correct analogy here. Hearing something, and something being a problem are too different things. Just like a boom shadow out of frame isn't a problem.

The vast majority of productions don't budget anything for dialogue mixing or sound design in post to fix these things,

What kind of low rent cable access show doesn't budget a mix? The lowest rent indie movie I ever worked on did a decent mix. Every doc I have ever worked on has had a mix. The shittiest dumb ass History channel show I ever worked on had a mix.

I understand it would be nice if the camera was a little quieter, but it's not. It is totally useable however, and a quiet talk with the sound guy before the shoot will usually prevent them complaining loudly about it in front of the client and the producers.

Just my opinion, I'm pretty anti sound anyway ;-)

Nick

 

[Michael Panfeld]

I don't want to start a snowboarders vs skiers, tastes great/less filling kind of argument here, but I take offense at Nick's comment. Nick G that is. That sounds like something a shooter would typically say about sound. I am going to bite my tongue here and refrain from a snappy response. I'll say this, studies have shown that sound is more important than visuals in terms of negative audience response to a movie. So the boom shadow/fan noise may be an apt analogy from a technical view, but from the audience's seat, they are not the same. They will ignore the boom shadow but get annoyed at the fan noise if it is not addressed (either on set or in post).

Doug is absolutely correct: the sound guy should be letting the producer/director know that he can hear the camera. With that knowledge, he/she can make some decisions on production changes and/or post requirements.

 

[Rob Gardner]

I am a Soundman. Hath not a Soundman eyes? Hath not a Soundman hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, heal'd by the same means, warm'd and cool'd by the same winter and summer, as a DP is?

If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die?

 

[Nick Gardner]

That sounds like something a shooter would typically say about sound

I am not trying to be antagonistic, I'm all for an open discussion. I'm not talking as a shooter, I am talking as a film maker who has followed dozens of productions all the way through post, and sat in on more than a few mixes. Sound design is incredibly important, I don't mean to diminish that at all. It's more of making mountains out of mole hills.

Let me put it like this. Nobody's interview sound is going to be ruined with the fans at 35% if they have a decent sound guy and a good shotgun mic. It sure as shit is going to ruin your interview if you turn the fans down and they kick in in the middle of the interview.

Nick

 

[Eric Haase]

Fan set to manual @ 38-40 roll, 100% standby. Many long interviews and no overheating.

You will not have a sound issue no matter how quiet the room or close the camera. You know they're going to put music under it anyway....and it is still quieter than any film camera. Someone make a chart for this in one of these crazy camera tests and be sure to put all film cameras in there. Did someone say "barney?"

 

[Rick Darge]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Best. Ever. Ever.

I am a Soundman. Hath not a Soundman eyes? Hath not a Soundman hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, heal'd by the same means, warm'd and cool'd by the same winter and summer, as a DP is?

If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die?

 

[Brendan McGinty]

I have had fan issues in a natural history context. Shooting on a 300mm lens in a "hide", vultures were scarred off a potential carcass (they are surprisingly cautious before they have settled on a kill) when the fans kicked in.
I had wondered whether there were any mechanical solutions to the fan noise?
There are several "acoustically silent" fans being offered for computer and industrial cooling purposes at the moment. I think there has been work done on the blade contours... with non-traditional blades yielding a far quieter product.
Could the Epic's fan itself be replaced with a quieter/silent version?
Also the grille in front of the fan is fairly basic... if you hold your hand at a 45 degree angle in front of it the improvement is quite striking. Again I wondered whether an extended acoustic grille could work to reduce the noise?
Love the pictures and understand the need for the cooling... just wondered if there might be some more acoustically elegant options for fan and grille?

 

[Robert Berger]

Was shooting a feature for NBC Sports for London Olympics last week. The fan settings were "Manual" and record speed was set to 25% (then later in the interview after coming on automatically it was set to "Off", then back to 25%), and stand-by speed set to 75%. The room was air conditioned and was in the mid-to low 70's F. Cool, HMI and Kino Flo lighting. Was shooting for the PAL broadcast out of London at 25 Fps.

This young Olympian we interviewed has a tragic story of being sexually abused by her mother's boyfriend and her mother dying in a car accident right after the abuse.

As she told the story to the camera and tears streamed down her face...the camera fan turned on automatically at 100% (even though set to manual).

It sounded like a leaf blower was three feet from the microphone. It was, of course, very loud in the quite room Ruined the content for that sound byte...and ruined the moment as we had to stop. I ran the fan, put a bag of ice on the camera and apologized to the producer for the interruption.

After cooling the camera and re-starting the interview...the fan kept going on by itself about every 4-5 minutes. We eventually concluded the interview and the editors will try to salvage the audio and content...but i was extremely disappointed in the real world functionality of the camera as it relates to overheating. The picture was great, but if i can't get through a one hour interview in a room temperature environment without very loud fan noise, I've got an issue with that as a tool for recording sync sound in an intimate setting. (interviews)

Could just be a software bug, and maybe my camera is the only one that does that. Wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience or has any advice on how to keep the fan from starting spontaneously during an intimate interview in a quiet room that may require long clips rolling continuously.

I shoot a lot of long interviews and 35% running fan works very well in tight rooms. 75% when stop filming will cool enough. Prtecting your data it's wise to start/stop every time you can. Otherwise with a power loss you will lose your last clip.

 

[Antonio Ribeiro]

+1

Are you an engineer Antonio?

Let's start a group buy ;-)

Pat

Hi Patrick,

No, just someone who was startled when I first saw those things you put round bottles to keep them cool. Maybe we could have something similar for our cameras. So the line of thought before a shoot would be 'Batteries charged: check; tripod plate: check; lenses; check; Red's cooler sleeve from the freezer: check.:smash:

A

 

[Greg Blakey]

I also find this extremely frustrating. I live in australia. 35c+ degrees celsius is a common temperature durring summer. My scarlet's fan goes to 100% at 40c. Which feels over cautious. I understand these technologies run hot. However when i compare it to a lap top processing massive amount of data is safe running temperature is around 80c. I do wonder if this problem be resolved by increasing the temperature threshold?

Kindest
Greg

 

[Patrick Tresch]

NOT ALL EPIC ARE THE SAME!!!!

So if someone is complaining about overheating it doesn't mean all have the same problem!

STOP SHOOTING the "overheating" guys!

Thanks

Pat

 

[Vico Martin]

NOT ALL EPIC ARE THE SAME!!!!

So if someone is complaining about overheating it doesn't mean all have the same problem!

STOP SHOOTING the "overheating" guys!

Thanks

Pat

Yes, please. That´s the conclusion with my Red Rep., it´s a real issue, but not all Epics are affected, only one of mines have this problem. A new fan kit is flying to me, will see.

Vico.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Yes, please. That´s the conclusion with my Red Rep., it´s a real issue, but not all Epics are affected, only one of mines have this problem. A new fan kit is flying to me, will see.

Vico.

Wich Sr. number do you have? Is it an X?


Pat

(Snr. Epic-X2013 delivered 02.2012 is subjectively ok)

 

[Frazier Nivens]

I love my EPICX, there for me is really only one problem that I hope can be solved in the future somehow. The fan noise. I was filming a performance of Guys and Dolls in a theater, camera set up at the back of the place on a riser on my tripod. The actors were on stage doing their lines, the performance was 1 hr. and 20 min. long, one continuous shot.

Everything was indoors, nice and cool, but during one of the quieter scenes, all of the sudden the camera kicked into high fan and quite a few folks in the theater turned around and looked at me. Oh my, needless to say I was a bit embarrassed by that one. The imaging I got during the performance was just amazing and worth it all they were over the moon with the quality of the imaging but if there's anyway to solve the fan being so loud, I'd pay to have something quieter. Fortunately I also had a nice audio track recorded separately into a digital recorder and had nice wonderfully mixed sound off the board.

Still wouldn't trade this camera for another...no way...just would trade the fan in for a quieter one.

 

[John Marchant]

A few of things worth noting:

• The trigger point for the fan to run at 100% to save you from frying the camera is 75 degrees as shown on the LCD.
• Anything you can do to clear the flow of air will improve both cooling and noise: It may be just me, but my EPIC-M runs much quieter with the fan guard removed temporarily. Otherwise watch placement of cables and acc's around the inlet and exhaust.
• If you're into manual settings, set the cam to run the fan at 100% while in standby - gives you the biggest bite at the cheese when you roll.
• You can adjust fan settings mid-take, no problem at all. I often ride the fan setting a tiny bit manually in a long interview take. Keep my eye on the rate of rise in temp, and if its looking likely that I will hit a critical temp before the interview is over, just nudge it up 1 or 2 % and keep my eye on things.

Just to follow up about the fan guard - having a fixed object with sharp edges close to an impeller definitely causes some significant additional noise. This is with the fan running 100% and measuring very close range of course:

Have a little listen

I would love Red to offer a larger diameter draw-through fan as an option to fit atop the tactical top plate with a short flying lead to the front fan location for power.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

I was also wondering if the nice RED logo and the RED top plate would lower the cooling efficiency.

Do we woid warranty if we take the fan guard away? I think Ill do a fan blimp... I hear a lot of noise going toward the scene (front of the camera) from the fan. Blocking it with an audio blimp wich still would let the air flow would lower the fan noise level.

Trying to find a solution.


Pat

 

[John Marchant]

Red have previously stated that the fan is a user serviceable item, so removing the cover to access it shouldn't be a warranty problem. I make no recommendation to shoot this way, RED know best - I'm just a tinkerer and experimenter... It does illustrate that blocking the inlet and exhaust even slightly with a cable here, an accessory there, actually makes a difference.

 

[Scott Brown]

Have the team at RED acknowledged the fan noise issue at all?

Just wondering what can be done technically to improve this issue - apart from the fan noise we love the Epic but for long interviews which can often be about personal and sensitive issues, the fan noise during and between takes kills the moment and for now is making us consider alternative cameras for interviews.

Scott

 

[Les C.]

Just to follow up about the fan guard - having a fixed object with sharp edges close to an impeller definitely causes some significant additional noise. This is with the fan running 100% and measuring very close range of course:

Have a little listen

I would love Red to offer a larger diameter draw-through fan as an option to fit atop the tactical top plate with a short flying lead to the front fan location for power.

I would pay for a replacement part that stuck out farther, maybe with some acoustic foam, if it reduced the noise.

But, I'd really love a slow moving 180mm external replacement fan. I'm a lot more concerned about the noise than the size - or hassle involved with an external fan.

 

[Antonio Ribeiro]

Guys,

I think I am going to have to eat my hat here. I did another interview today with stand up comedian Stewart Lee and the Dome in Brighton here in the UK. He is a great, great talker. And this time there was no overheating issues. This is what I did differently: fan when recording: 30% / Fan on standby 80%. This being said, the longest clip I've done was 10 minutes in length / 6:1 recording setting. I never had to switch camera off because of overheating and the hottest the camera got was 40 degrees. Way lower than the 42/43 degrees point where the camera shuts down. I also used the redvolts. Before we started the interview, he did ask if the fan was always going to make that noise (on stand-by) I said no and we started recording he just relaxed into the interview. Phiuuu! It ain't perfect but it certainly is an imporvement from my previous experiences.