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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

EPIC FAN NOISE - HEARTBREAKING DURING INTERVIEW

Les C. said:
This pdf from my library should clarify:

https://www.yousendit.com/download/M3BrT0NUTSs5NVhIRHNUQw

Page 2 gets into how decibels affect how loud we perceive something.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, but it's nothing really new for me. I know the physics.
I was just correcting your math from your earlier post.
Quote from your document:

- 1 dB means about 90% of the original SPL
- 3 dB means about 70% of the original SPL
- 6 dB means about half of the original SPL
Click to expand...

Mathematically correctly rounded it would actually be
- 1 dB means about 89% of the original SPL
- 3 dB means about 71% of the original SPL
- 6 dB means EXACTLY half of the original SPL
And that's what I wrote.
 
Tom Visser said:
So, here is the thought that has occurred to me in helping to fix this issue. The challenge as I see it is to keep the required velocity of air moving over the camera's electronics to prevent the camera's logic from kicking the fan up to unworkable speeds, probably in the 35 to 50% range, depending on the distance of the camera to subject, framing, room, etc... The main issue or failure is depending on the small circumference built in fan to provide this air. I've seen installations in projection booths or equipment closets that have to deal with a similar excavation of hot air to keep the equipment running. Would anyone be up for trying a remotely placed larger capacity fan with cooling tubes? Here is a company that makes a product specifically designed to meet certain acoustic targets:
http://www.activethermal.com/page24.html
Click to expand...

Tom,

Go back and read Post #35.
Suggested the same solution to be considered for manufacture.

The example I used was the quieting of the ventilation system in my isolated recording booth manufactured by Vocal Booth (I own one of the larger Diamond Series). Referred to this because a primary consideration of this thread is the noise level of the ventilation applied.
The ventilation systems for computer rooms, projection, etc are concerned with heat evacuation first, acoustics not as much. We need both - or it's not a solution.

The in-line baffles I was referring to: www.vocalbooth.com/downloads/vocal-booth-ventilation.pdf
OK, my dimensions in the original post were off (did not measure while typing) but obviously, a product designed for our application would be scaled to fit an EPIC and probably be set to run on 14.4 or 28 volts.

Should mention, there are other technologies that can shrink the footprint of whatever solution is manufactured such as Vane Axial fans - using those would increase the pressure of the airflow without adding noise to our shooting environment.

Going back to the baffles for the ventilation of the Vocal Booth, as I mentioned in the earlier post, I've got some sensitive mics in there - nary a problem - so this approach is definitely worth exploring. Thanks for reinforcing the general idea!
 
Will Keir said:
I have a similar fan story. I was filming a film premier, during the "thank" speech it was a little comfortable with my leaf blower. :)

If I could turn the fan noise off, the heat would go up, probably not high enough to damage anything in a temperate room but probably enough to mess with my blackshade, possible introducing more noise. Since it's a stage lit theater, I'll naturally have a lot of blacks already. So don't take your "leaf blower" to uncontrolled events or just deal with it?
Click to expand...

What I'd like to see is a new option (not replacing the others) to keep the RED a constant temperature (most likely the highest allowable minus 2 or 3 degrees) by changing the fan speed slightly over time.

That should minimize noise due to differences in black shade temperature (which, from another thread, can be quite noticeable with only a 5 degree variation).

There could be an app that would show you the fan speed ranges you'd get depending on ambient air temperature.

Wouldn't work for interviews (hopefully thermal management or a new Dragon chips at smaller geometries and power levels might accomplish that).

The earlier gentleman's idea about a slower moving large external fan would work for me. A 120mm fan connected by a short hose would just be one more very light gadget to mount.
 
Well, I hate to support Nick’s position after his savage and unprovoked attack against the noble profession of sound-person, but my recent experience with the Epic was to produce a film with a series of the longest interviews I have ever done (or at least that was the complaint of the bored crew) in a variety of locations and there was never a problem with the camera or the audio.

This thread seems to be a huge exercise jumping up and down about nothing. Of course anytime an important interview is lost for a technical reason is a serious tragedy, but come on, let’s get serious. Any camera makes a certain amount of noise. If we pay professionals to record the sound, and we understand the nature and limitations of the tools, then I really don’t see the problem. Who, after all, records interviews in a dead silent environment? Nobody. Who (other than a dangerously anal soundman) expects total silence in a production? Nobody who is of this earth. So let’s get over it.
 
I'm working on a doc project with the interviews coming up soon, and I'm a little worried about the fan setting override feature. It seems like the bulk of the problems caused by the fan setting override could be solved by a few firmware tweaks.
As it is, the fan kicks in at 100% out of the blue (unless you're watching closely which no one can guarantee) I'd like to have a on screen flashing indication of an impeding fan setting override. In addition, a slower ramp up of the fan override once
the sensor reaches a certain temp,instead of instantly going to 100%. With those small changes and a little prep everybody would know to watch/listen for the fan speeding up and have a chance to take a break before the 100% fan setting kicks in.

Like this:
The camera will shut down for temperature reasons. Below is the behavior you should get when reaching high temperatures.
At 72c the temperature display will turn yellow and flash
At 74c it turns orange and flashes faster
At 75c the user speed is overridden and fan goes to max speed over 30 seconds. Even if recording.
At 76c the temp display will turn red. Although max fan speed usually prevents getting there.
At 77c if you are recording, the record will be stopped
At 83c the camera will shutdown
 
Rob Gardner said:
Well, I hate to support Nick’s position after his savage and unprovoked attack against the noble profession of sound-person, but my recent experience with the Epic was to produce a film with a series of the longest interviews I have ever done (or at least that was the complaint of the bored crew) in a variety of locations and there was never a problem with the camera or the audio.

This thread seems to be a huge exercise jumping up and down about nothing. Of course anytime an important interview is lost for a technical reason is a serious tragedy, but come on, let’s get serious. Any camera makes a certain amount of noise. If we pay professionals to record the sound, and we understand the nature and limitations of the tools, then I really don’t see the problem. Who, after all, records interviews in a dead silent environment? Nobody. Who (other than a dangerously anal soundman) expects total silence in a production? Nobody who is of this earth. So let’s get over it.
Click to expand...

All depends on where you are coming from. From the "video" (not film) side, once we moved from tape to solid state media, many cameras did become effectively "silent".
To say that a soundman or audio engineer is being anal by trying to achieve the best results possible is like saying that the cameraman is being the same by verifying focus. Is "close enough" ever a defining characteristic of a professional?

I do agree, a lot of the conversation has seemed a bit over the top, but let's not lose sight of the start of this thread. That was a description of a serious tragedy (not "nothing").
Nobody has stated an expectation of total silence, but when a problem surfaces, we need to discuss solutions with consideration.
By discussing options, we are not only providing a benefit to the rest of our community, but to RED's development engineers. That helps everyone.

What does the inverse is the personal attacks and innuendo - there is no reason for the hostility being bantered about. Demeaning crew positions in general is even worse.
That bias creates a hostile work environment on set which can and does affect the quality of the product we deliver. Being serious, who looks forward to working in those conditions?
 
It is difficult to work out exactly what is going on here. To me some of the statements do seem over the top. I conducted interviews over three days in an enclosed room. Subject maybe 7 - 8 feet away. I was using a CSE-3 - SD744T. Manual fan setting was 39%. That is a good balance - you can record for as long as you like and the cam temperature is not a problem. Sound is perfect. When I record I am not really aware of the problem at all. So does this mean that some Epics are louder than others at the same settings? The original problem that started this thread seemed to suggest that the sound guys could hear the camera in record mode even when the fan was set to 25%.
 
I have 2 situations where I need the fan to be softer.
1 - filming buddhist monks' secret meditations
2 - filming classical musicians
i wish a solution will be found, even though i got good results with very low fan.
the images are sublime and beyond my expectations...
cheers
 
Rob Castiglione said:
It is difficult to work out exactly what is going on here. To me some of the statements do seem over the top. I conducted interviews over three days in an enclosed room. Subject maybe 7 - 8 feet away. I was using a CSE-3 - SD744T. Manual fan setting was 39%. That is a good balance - you can record for as long as you like and the cam temperature is not a problem. Sound is perfect. When I record I am not really aware of the problem at all. So does this mean that some Epics are louder than others at the same settings? The original problem that started this thread seemed to suggest that the sound guys could hear the camera in record mode even when the fan was set to 25%.
Click to expand...

The original point was that manual fan speed while recording is a constant, while ambient temperature and recording length are variable. This makes it difficult to determine an optimal manual fan speed. In your example, you guessed correctly. Guess wrong, and the fans come on at 100%, potentially at a bad time, and almost definitely ruin the audio. The option is to set the fan to Auto, where the fan speed is now variable as well.
 
I have read over the original post. I don't think that that is the point he was making. I think that it is the point you are making. It is nevertheless a good point. I can't know that that manual fan setting is going to be effective in say much warmer conditions. It just happened to be effective in the specific conditions I was shooting.
 
Rob Gardner said:
This thread seems to be a huge exercise jumping up and down about nothing. Of course anytime an important interview is lost for a technical reason is a serious tragedy, but come on, let’s get serious. Any camera makes a certain amount of noise. If we pay professionals to record the sound, and we understand the nature and limitations of the tools, then I really don’t see the problem. Who, after all, records interviews in a dead silent environment? Nobody. Who (other than a dangerously anal soundman) expects total silence in a production? Nobody who is of this earth. So let’s get over it.
Click to expand...
I record a lot of chroma key in the studio. I want it to be as noise free as possible.

I can't speak for anyone else, but my ears have had so much abuse from loud music, that I've probably lost the ability to hear some of the noise (but I can see the waveforms - and I can hear it perfectly if I turn up the volume a bit on my studio monitors). Maybe this is why some others feel that there's no noise problem?

If we can put men on the moon, we can devise a way to record without introducing extra noise. It's never desirable, whether you can work around it or not.

I have RX2, and it damages the sound. Why go to all the trouble of 3rd party audio recording, if you're not recording the best sound to begin with?

Why do we go to the trouble to record 4K when many are re-purposing for 1080p?

The desire for better audio is no different than the perfectionist attitude that brought us to RED's 4K in the first place.
 
Rob Castiglione said:
I have read over the original post. I don't think that that is the point he was making. I think that it is the point you are making. It is nevertheless a good point. I can't know that that manual fan setting is going to be effective in say much warmer conditions. It just happened to be effective in the specific conditions I was shooting.
Click to expand...

Hmm, I think the summation I posted is exactly what Mike was saying. He said in the first post he estimated and set the fans to manual at 25%. His manual settings were too low, which resulted in the override fan mode to kick in on a long take. The noise at 100% override mode ruined his shots audio at a bad moment. He mentions lights including HMI's and other personnel which put out unknown amount of heat in his confined space. He says in post #3 that the Auto setting didn't work out for them either. What he doesn't say, but you are, was that the fans were actually running at 25% and it was ruining the audio.
Rob Castiglione said:
The original problem that started this thread seemed to suggest that the sound guys could hear the camera in record mode even when the fan was set to 25%.
Click to expand...
I can't find any post in which Mike says he had the fans actually running at 25% and it was too loud. He only says when his manual setting was overridden and went to 100% it was too loud. This is why I offered my suggestion about changing that behavior in the firmware so the override is less abrupt. I think the point that's tripping you up here is that you read 25% speed fans ruined his take. Instead, it's that he guessed too low on the manual settings and the fans are forced to come on at 100% anyway. What I'm learning from this thread to set the manual record speed as high as tolerable to avoid surprises.
Mike Kushner said:
Was shooting a feature for NBC Sports for London Olympics last week. The fan settings were "Manual" and record speed was set to 25% (then later in the interview after coming on automatically it was set to "Off", then back to 25%), and stand-by speed set to 75%. The room was air conditioned and was in the mid-to low 70's F. Cool, HMI and Kino Flo lighting. Was shooting for the PAL broadcast out of London at 25 Fps.

This young Olympian we interviewed has a tragic story of being sexually abused by her mother's boyfriend and her mother dying in a car accident right after the abuse.

As she told the story to the camera and tears streamed down her face...the camera fan turned on automatically at 100% (even though set to manual).

It sounded like a leaf blower was three feet from the microphone. It was, of course, very loud in the quite room Ruined the content for that sound byte...and ruined the moment as we had to stop. I ran the fan, put a bag of ice on the camera and apologized to the producer for the interruption.

After cooling the camera and re-starting the interview...the fan kept going on by itself about every 4-5 minutes. We eventually concluded the interview and the editors will try to salvage the audio and content...but i was extremely disappointed in the real world functionality of the camera as it relates to overheating. The picture was great, but if i can't get through a one hour interview in a room temperature environment without very loud fan noise, I've got an issue with that as a tool for recording sync sound in an intimate setting. (interviews)

Could just be a software bug, and maybe my camera is the only one that does that. Wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience or has any advice on how to keep the fan from starting spontaneously during an intimate interview in a quiet room that may require long clips rolling continuously.
Click to expand...
Mike Kushner said:
the camera was about 5 feet from the subject in a dead quite room. Low auto was used originally, but was a little too loud for the sound department.
Click to expand...




 
Rob Castiglione said:
It is difficult to work out exactly what is going on here. To me some of the statements do seem over the top. I conducted interviews over three days in an enclosed room. Subject maybe 7 - 8 feet away. I was using a CSE-3 - SD744T. Manual fan setting was 39%. That is a good balance - you can record for as long as you like and the cam temperature is not a problem. Sound is perfect. When I record I am not really aware of the problem at all. So does this mean that some Epics are louder than others at the same settings? The original problem that started this thread seemed to suggest that the sound guys could hear the camera in record mode even when the fan was set to 25%.
Click to expand...


I have had similar experiences to you. Long takes or interviews, fan at 39%, small room, no problems. fan set to 100% for standby. If these settings don't keep your Epic from overheating maybe there is something wrong with your unit? If anyone complains about the noise at fan speed 39% they are probably over reacting.
 
Eric, it's not over reacting. Because also after a nice interview when you cut and everything went wekll, it's annoying the vacuum cleaner goes on, and then it draws attention to the camera, when you don't want that, it still breaks some of atmosphere you that was there before...
 
But the loudness of the fan in standby mode is a different point. Some people have concerns about the loudness of the fan when it is recording. The camera is never going to be quite in standby mode for obvious reasons. Its inherent to the design of the camera.
 
Rob Castiglione said:
But the loudness of the fan in standby mode is a different point. Some people have concerns about the loudness of the fan when it is recording. The camera is never going to be quite in standby mode for obvious reasons. Its inherent to the design of the camera.
Click to expand...

I think to put it simply, Scarlet and Epic are the greatest fiction cameras ever made. The best to have on set, where no one actually cares about the standby fan noise. They are also good for some documentary work, but they aren't good when you need that more intimate interview. Maybe at this very moment, the RED team are busy trying to design an ingenious way to keep stand-by noise to a minimum, if required.
 
Guys,
I work on a LOT of high profile interviews for studios, networks, record labels, and documentaries.
I work on some as a DoP/Camera op, some as sound, and some as field producer.

RED products have been declined by all the studio and network producers I have asked. Sometimes it's because they are locked into a non R3D post scenario. Other times it's because of the fan noise.


I have worked as a sound mixer on drama and commercial shoots with Epic, Red One, Sony F3, F900, Betacams, Panasonic tape and tapeless, DSLRs, and even in the old days with 16mm cameras.. the fan is louder than an Arri SR motor... sorry, it is...

The blunt truths are 1)alll camera noise is undesirable as it distracts the talent, even if the mixer and editor manage to minimize it in the field and hide or remove it in the deliverable.

and 2) on a pure debibel level, the Epic is the noisiest camera in use today. It is the JOB of the sound mixer to call the producer's attention to anything that is an extraneous sound in the environment. Then, they will wrestle with solutions. they may be able to mitigate how much noise is on the track, but they are not going to be able to help the talent distraction factor.

However, as 4K aquisition and workflow become used in the interview segment, we need a solution for this.

I did wonder if polishing the ports on the existing vent panel on the camera would help... maybe an extrude hone process, like that used in automotive engine chamber polishing might do the trick... at least if the air wasn't hitting so many sharp corners on the way through the body, that might help...
I also am intrigued by the DYson "bladeless" fans...
But guys, don't think you can just shout down the complaints of noise... that mearly increases the distraction in the room

BTW.. Yes, I am putting money in the cookie jar to buy my own RED camera.... eventually an Epic..
 
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