EPIC FAN NOISE - HEARTBREAKING DURING INTERVIEW

[Russ Campbell]

Same problems with my Epic-M. Fan set to manual 30/100. After about 20 mins into the interview, temp hit the critical mark and the fan went up to 100%. Had my Red One MX recording at the same time without any problems. I have recorded interviews of 1 hour and longer in very confined and hot enviiroments with tungsten lights without any issues. The Epic size must be contributing to poorer heat dissipation. I'm going to try John's idea to remove the front grill and see if I can get away with a higher fan setting during takes without the sound dept throwing their toys. Also going to try my Epic-X next time and see if it copes with longer takes.

 

[Michael Ou]

Also started a thread about it a week ago, i really hope red can somehow find a solution for this...

This perhaps falls principally within the realm of the chip manufacturers, and the present state of the art. The day they make cooler running chips capable of the same or better performance/power, then the need for fans will be diminished. In the meantime (read:always) we need to learn, plan, and work around the particular qualities of every camera system. Red is not the only camera with a fan, but it is the only camera that gives us 5k, with 6k waiting in the wings, yummy!

 

[Erich Ocean]

This perhaps falls principally within the realm of the chip manufacturers, and the present state of the art. The day they make cooler running chips capable of the same or better performance/power, then the need for fans will be diminished.

That's a "process improvement", and it's been happening roughly every 18 months for the last 30+ years.

I'm sure RED would love to give their ASIC a die shrink for all of the reasons you mentioned, plus cost.

 

[Simon J Reilly]

A few of things worth noting:

• You can adjust fan settings mid-take, no problem at all. I often ride the fan setting a tiny bit manually in a long interview take. Keep my eye on the rate of rise in temp, and if its looking likely that I will hit a critical temp before the interview is over, just nudge it up 1 or 2 % and keep my eye on things.

I did not know you could access the fan setting while recording , very good to know
thanks John

 

[Michael Panfeld]

Why can't RED offer a bolt-on Cooling Module to solve this very issue? I am envisioning a solid-state Peltier device with a large heat sink.

 

[Tommi Hares]

Just a quick question: Why are the fans so small in the camera? Why not use larger ones with lower RPM for required airflow? Though, I'm sure the fans are just the right size, and I just lack the required understanding (as usual)). How about a "QUIET TAKE" module for extralong continues shoots?

Coming from a TOTAL amateur (feel free to shoot me): To be fair; I don't think you need 4(5/6)K RAW for closeup interview shots, do you?

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Just a quick question: Why are the fans so small in the camera?

Because it's such a small camera. That being said, an 80mm 'top plate' with a d-tap on it would be good.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Was DITing on a T3 in October and they were doing 12 minute takes. When the fans were set to 35% they would overheat in the small rooms. I set them to 40% and during the long takes there were no issues with the camera overheating. Typically for hot days or small rooms I set to 40/100, works great. If you need absolute quiet then you need to keep your takes down to 5 minutes. Also you should be cutting your camera when you're doing long interviews anyways as if you lose power for whatever reason while at minute 19 or whatever, you've just lost the entire clip and have just wasted 19 minutes of your time. So the moral of the story is shorter clips

Or have the camera plugged into a UPS. There is one director I worked with recently who wanted the cameras running continuously during the interview because he wanted the off the cuff stuff. Cutting at 5 minutes was not an option. This was on a Red One, so fan setting wasn't an issue.In general though, I do agree with cutting when possible. But RED also breaks the data up into chunks so you don't lose the entire piece if something goes wrong deep into it.

 

[Tommi Hares]

Because it's such a small camera.

Yeah, but relative to the chassis, the fan size could be bigger. :smash:

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

i killed 4 people on the sets with epic fan noise.most deadliest weapon ever!

 

[Scott Brown]

Epic truly delivers stunning pictures BUT the audio on RED cams always feels like an after thought.

For shooting interviews for documentaries which is our bread and butter work, Epic is not ideal due to fan noise as the first post in this thread so clearly described - our RED One while not perfect in the audio department, was much quieter than Epic in record mode.

I urge Jim and the team to look at the fan noise situation which right now is really not acceptable. We had to switch cameras quickly to shoot an interview last week on a EX3 because Epic was too noisy.....:angry:

Best wishes

Scott

 

[Michael Panfeld]

Was on a Scarlet shoot a few weeks ago. Huge soundstage, Scarlet was 15-20 feet from the talent. I hung some Schoeps over the talent. Sounded like a wind tunnel when not recording, but 30-32% during recording was quet enough that far away.

Mike: can't you ADR the athlete's interview? and he laughed....

 

[Tommi Hares]

I urge Jim and the team to look at the fan noise situation which right now is really not acceptable.

I don't know if the fan-assembly is 3rd party, but maybe a hefty research on angle of attack of the fan blade and anti-cavitation when introduced by rpm?
EDIT: My point: I'm pretty sure you could gain somewhere around 3db from that alone.

EDIT 2: Come to think of it (and upon further reading): Shit. That's already been taken care of. Never mind me!

 

[Rob Castiglione]

I agree with Mark. I have used the camera for long interviews as well with no particular problems and I am pretty particular about my sound.

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Jarred mentioned in one of the NAB 2012 threads (was it Questions?) that based on our input, power management was moving up in priority. Obviously, better power management may very well lead to better heat management.

The ideas on cooling modules and an external upper fan are worth considering. Actually, a heat exchanger cooling module would help out in other situations - jungles, deserts, installed in small UW or explosion proof enclosures...

But back on topic, I wonder if the air passageway through the camera is open when the internal fans are not blowing.
if that is the case, perhaps a small external accessory can be developed for audio critical long run interviews.

I'm thinking of the ventilation system associated with my Vocal Booth. There are in-line enclosed baffles that allow continuous ventilation without any noise apparent inside the booth - and I've got some pretty sensitive mics in there. Sure, the baffle boxes are oversized - about 6"x6"x24", but they are providing ventilation to a 10'x10'x8' space.

Same idea, just sized for the application: Could something like a muffin fan, iso-mounted in a small baffled box with an attached tube to the camera providing a continuous, nearly silent air flow work for EPIC's in critical interview applications?

 

[Nick Gardner]

If the sound guy is complaining about the fan noise while rolling, get a new sound guy. Seriously. Epic with the fan set where it should be so it doesn't overheat is quieter than most film cameras ever made. If the sound monkey is using a shotgun mike close to the talent, as they should be in an interview, you will never hear the camera, or if you do, it will be so far under that it's a non issue.

Nick

 

[Nick Morrison]

If the sound guy is complaining about the fan noise while rolling, get a new sound guy. Seriously. Epic with the fan set where it should be so it doesn't overheat is quieter than most film cameras ever made. If the sound monkey is using a shotgun mike close to the talent, as they should be in an interview, you will never hear the camera, or if you do, it will be so far under that it's a non issue.

Nick

What settings are you using? Just curious. I've been making an offline list of everyone's settings that seem to be working...and they all seem to landing in this range 30-40 while recordng....70/100 on stand by...

 

[Scott Brown]

With my tests so far, the acceptable level for us is a manual fan speed around 33% - however at this speed, temp rises very quickly on our Epic which makes me nervous! And I'm in Scotland where it's nearly always freezing :smile5:

Scott

 

[Steve Sherrick]

If the sound guy is complaining about the fan noise while rolling, get a new sound guy. Seriously. Epic with the fan set where it should be so it doesn't overheat is quieter than most film cameras ever made. If the sound monkey is using a shotgun mike close to the talent, as they should be in an interview, you will never hear the camera, or if you do, it will be so far under that it's a non issue.

Nick

Whatever the case may be, the comparison should be with digital video cameras not film cameras.

 

[Doug Beatty]

If the sound guy is complaining about the fan noise while rolling, get a new sound guy. Seriously. Epic with the fan set where it should be so it doesn't overheat is quieter than most film cameras ever made. If the sound monkey is using a shotgun mike close to the talent, as they should be in an interview, you will never hear the camera, or if you do, it will be so far under that it's a non issue.

Nick

A 'non-issue' to camera could mean the world to sound. You wouldn't be happy with a slight boom shadow in the shot halfway through a long take, would you? It didn't affect sound, so it's a non-issue, right? Wrong.

The vast majority of productions don't budget anything for dialogue mixing or sound design in post to fix these things, so the monkey (as you say) is just doing his job letting the producer/director know that camera is stepping on his audio, however slight you may think the noise is.

If the client is fine with it, great. If not and the solution is to fire sound, that's their choice. Wouldn't be my choice, but it would be a choice, that's for sure.