Enter the Dragon

[Paul Russell]

645 is fine. I already use the full set Mamiya primes. They're a bit slow but they look glorious.

 

[steve duncan]

Exactly when did these things happen? :huh: To be clear, they do tout "obsolescence obsolete" but a trade-in program definitely honors that.

I bought my Scarlet a few days after they were introduced. I love it. I would love to upgrade to Dragon. But I have been paying close attention and the two things stated above never happened. The most generous interpretation of your comments I can make is that you are exaggerating.

And I suspect your characterization of how easy it is to upgrade Scarlet to Epic is a bit naive. (Ah, hell, just have one of the receptionists throw a couple those extra Epic boards into the Scarlet in between phone calls - LOL)

It clearly stated on the Scarlet sales page that the sensor is upgradable. Terry, if you're a Scarlet owner and you didn't even know the main value of buying into the RED Scarlet, then maybe you need to spend a little more time reading. PM me if you're still confused, i'll happily explain it in more detail.

The only salvation is a fair price towards an upgrade... I myself would've considered buying the Black magic, if i knew the sensor wasn't upgradeable on the Scarlet, and saved my money for all the new 4K cameras that will be out in 2015.

BTW, upgrading the Scarlet boards with Epic boards is not terribly difficult. It's almost the same camera.

 

[steve duncan]

Well, i believe the idea was, all the accesories are interchangeable, and the brain was the only part you changed out. Actually.... the dragon "should" be a whole new camera. Remember, the roadmap for epic? You have Scarlet S35, and Epic S35 as of now. The Epic FF35 is looking like its going to be the Dragon. Instead of buying a new camera, Red is giving epic owners the option to save what could potentially be $20,000 and only have to upgrade the sensor. And you know what? Scarlet owners get full trade in value if they choose to towards the Epic/Dragon. All the support is interchangeable. I dont really see what the problem is. They are being as fair as they can without throwing boxes of epics off the back of a truck to the "starving" crowd.

you make a good point.... if RED is cool, and allows Scarlet owners the ability to upgrade to Epic for around $8,000- I think that would be reasonable. Everybody wins.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Steve - you still didn't cite where RED promised Scarlet owners they could upgrade to Dragon for $6K. Probably because that never happened. And, yes, I concede that the sales page says that it is upgradeable but that is one small phrase in an avalanche of discussion in this forum that has made it clear for a very long time that the "upgrade" would not be so very straightforward. Perhaps it is you that should hang out here more and read the discussion that has taken place over the last year about Scarlet and the last several years about RED and its approach.

Oh, and you haven't dealt with the issue of Scarlet having to go by way of Epic to get to Dragon. Did you expect that to be free; that the Scarlet owners would pay the same as Epic owners? Wow - I'd love that but I suspect a few people might feel a little bit cheated. :frown5:

And, you are showing your naiveté by suggesting the process of swapping out boards is no big deal. The process of recalling thousands of cameras, disassembling them, replacing various boards, testing, packing and reshipping is not "easy." In your case, maybe RED will give you a DIY kit and you can do it yourself! :w00t:

 

[Bob Gundu]

I have notified RED about the copy for the Scarlet sensor upgrade is misleading. They will be updating it to be more clear.

 

[steve duncan]

Steve - you still didn't cite where RED promised Scarlet owners they could upgrade to Dragon for $6K. Probably because that never happened. And, yes, I concede that the sales page says that it is upgradeable :w00t:

ok, lol, keep rereading that last sentence til it sinks in.... i didn't think we'd have to go by way of Epic to get to Dragon, because... well keep rereading that last sentence you wrote. I never said they promised it for 6K, nor am i angry if it's more- it was the company's estimated price. All i'm saying is that RED promised the Scarlet would be upgradeable and it isn't... you wrote an entire post saying that RED never made that commitment, and we proved you wrong. A simple 'i was wrong' would do. If GM says their new car has an upgradeable engine on their sales page-- even if it was one small itty bitty sentence- doesn't that mean the car engine is upgradeable? or should the consumer have to spend a few weeks in a forum to confirm? why would or should any potential Scarlet owner have to go through thousands of posts in the RED forum to try to decipher what the company themselves clearly wrote on their own sales page? Have you lost your mind? The sales literature is what counts, not what the general public talks about in a forum.

the process of swapping out boards is relatively easy... designing a new sensor, and designing and testing new boards to work with a new sensor-- that's a lot of work. Since the new boards already exist in a factory, there's no R&D involved-- just labor. a skilled technician would be able to do it. probably wise not to do it yourself- but a RED technician, having installed the same boards in a very similar body, could get it done without much trouble.

 

[Madjid El ayari]

I have also bought the scarlet brain, because Red made his selling communication by noticing that the scarlet will be upgradable !

Most of the Scarlet owner will not propably be able to buy the New 6k sensor upgrade program, if the upgrade cost the price of the epic brain + 6000 dollars - the price of the scarlet brain

Scarlet owner are low budgect consumers, and i am just expecting at least 5k 60fps with the new 21 stop sensor , with the new color science for a scarlet low budgect buyer price .

 

[Scott Crawley]

- just labor. a skilled technician would be able to do it. probably wise not to do it yourself- but a RED technician, having installed the same boards in a very similar body, could get it done without much trouble.

I have not compared the innards of both cameras so I don't know if the boards are the same dimensions, but for the sake of discussion let's assume that you are correct in that regard. In that case labor is mostly what we are talking about but the refit process is also going to yield some loss. That expense needs to be taken into account as well.

Which is more cost effective; upgrading users by trade-in or gutting two working systems and re-assembling them, each in another body?

 

[Peter Proniewicz-Brooks]

I have also bought the scarlet brain, because Red made his selling communication by noticing that the scarlet will be upgradable !

Most of the Scarlet owner will not propably be able to buy the New 6k sensor upgrade program, if the upgrade cost the price of the epic brain + 6000 dollars - the price of the scarlet brain

Scarlet owner are low budgect consumers, and i am just expecting at least 5k 60fps with the new 21 stop sensor , with the new color science for a scarlet low budgect buyer price .

RED have explained that they could not make the upgrade economic. In effect all the internal bits had to be replaced, meaning the cost was such it couldn't be offered for a price that made sense for both RED and us Scarlet customers.

Everything RED says should always be taken in with reference to the principle "Everything changes", what RED says is what they intend at that moment to deliver. In this case as they got further into the project they realised that the original aim of offering a scarlet sensor upgrade wasn't going to be possible in a way that made sense (in other words they'd either have to offer it at a massive loss to them, or charge a price that added up to EPIC money anyway).

I am disappointed, but in hindsight after the epic price drop at least, that this was always looking like a danger.

It will be interesting to see the Price of a Dragon Epic relative to the current models and to the Current model + Dragon upgrade.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Remember, they we're telling Scarlet owners they could get a whole new sensor with new boards for 6k. so just swapping out old school epic boards into Scarlet brains, should be relatively cheap.

Your words, misspelling and all. Both wrong.

And if you don't think a trade-in is as good as an "upgrade" - I won't bother arguing the case.

 

[Madjid El ayari]

Your words, misspelling and all. Both wrong.

And if you don't think a trade-in is as good as an "upgrade" - I won't bother arguing the case.

Trade-in is as good as an upgrade : No doubt , but for how much ? that s the question ?

How much are we going to pay ? Remember that Scarlet budgect owner don t compete in the same budgect league and rentability as Epic Owner !

Actually i don t care about 6k , for me 5k , or 4k full frame, would be more than enough for my needs , what i care the most is about the new color science and the 21 stop !!!

 

[Kyle Wullschleger]

Red 'promised' the option, not the budget price point. And I'd use promise lightly in regard to anything Red. Jim and Jarred are the first to admit they are not very reliable. I'm sure they've lost a few customers to this... but their products are excellent tools when it comes down to it and you can choose whatever tool you want and can afford to use. IF they do a Scarlet trade in program, relative to the reduced price of the Epic... I'd get busy working and start saving because that is the opportunity of a life time almost as generous as the Red One trade in. Maybe even more since all of your camera accessories live in the same eco-system.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people?
Camera's don't make images, people make images.

 

[Vladimir Eugene]

Trade-in is as good as an upgrade : No doubt , but for how much ? that s the question ?

How much are we going to pay ? Remember that Scarlet budgect owner don t compete in the same budgect league and rentability as Epic Owner !

Actually i don t care about 6k , for me 5k , or 4k full frame, would be more than enough for my needs , what i care the most is about the new color science and the 21 stop !!!

Sounds like you'd like the new sensor- which comes with the new ASIC , probably has a new heat /fan/boards/audio/- just about everything

There are two ways to look at this - and think about which one would benefit you most as a consumer.

1. Allow the company to do one new model- the EPIC- Dragon. By producing a greater number of these, making it possible for current EPIC owners to get in at a better price. At the same time allowing the greatest number of Scarlet users to ( due to cost savings and volume) to make the jump up to an EPIC- Dragon.

2. Have the company make several versions- most EPIC owners will upgrade to the dragon 6k, some may want only 5k- at a reduced rate. Scarlet owners can want a few versions of the Dragon sensor as well.

Most likely, if the company decided to go with option 2, the end result would be higher prices for everyone across the board- as well as a likeliness of less innovation in the future due to maintaining several standards, several firmwares, etc.

What may seem attractive in the short term may not be as attractive in the long run

 

[Madjid El ayari]

Sounds like you'd like the new sensor- which comes with the new ASIC , probably has a new heat /fan/boards/audio/- just about everything

There are two ways to look at this - and think about which one would benefit you most as a consumer.

....................................

I understand what you mean , and that's interesting .

But honnestly how many of the scarlet owner , wich are for most underground director are going to get the 17 000 dollars (+ the tax ) to buy the New Epic dragon ? + the computer who can manage this size of information 16bit in 6k 120fps man !

It will be fair from Red to find a way to make also happy all the Underground director who have bought a red scarlet ; because of the most important old statement of Jim way of the futur : UPGRADABLE !

A scarlet Dragon ( 5k 60fps , or anything at least possible) with the new sensor and color , resolution , color science in the underground budgect level of the scarlet owner would be more than logical .

My 2 cents

 

[Elsie N]

Here's a solution that can satisfy a lot of people, I think. RED could do a camera exchange for Epic owners who wish to upgrade to the Dragon. That's right... no sensor swap or ASIC swap... just a finished Dragon Epic plus cost for the customer's used 5k Epic. Then, allow a Scarlet owner to trade in their used Scarlet plus cost for the refurbished 5k Epic trade-ins. Eventually, sell the Scarlet trade-ins as Battle Tested.

Good for RED because they can build a camera much cheaper than they can upgrade an old one, I would suspect.

Good for Scarlet owners who would have the option to upgrade to the new Dragon Epic or the refurbished 5k Epic.

And good for current Epic owners because they get a Dragon Epic that has new matched internals.

 

[Mike P.]

So did Jarred ever post that third, high-dynamic range shot? (hint-hint).

 

[Ryan De Franco]

Timur, that's exactly what I'm saying, the original idea was "buy a buncha stuff and replace the brain when the time comes." At some point "replace" became "upgrade."

Elsie... that assumes that everyone is just dying to move up the "red food chain." I assisted photographers shooting Epic prototypes during the first year of Tattoo, spent all the years afterward saving for a Scarlet, enjoyed the hell out of it during 2012--the last thing I want to do is throw down everything I've saved for a camera I first held in 2009.

My money goes to Red only if the new color science and dynamic range exceed that of every other system. If human skin on the new sensor resembles the texture and gradations of Monochrome Epic, then Red's got my cash. Color and range. That's what fascinates me, not the chance to say YEAH MAN I GOTS 5K MX NOW to everybody on facebook.

SKIN TONES AND HIGHLIGHTS... the corner of the model's forehead in the sun, her skin tone straight outta camera... quality in those departments? That's what I'll pay red a fuck ton of money for. Not someone's used three-year-old Epic.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Trade-in is as good as an upgrade : No doubt , but for how much ? that s the question ?

How much are we going to pay ? Remember that Scarlet budgect owner don t compete in the same budgect league and rentability as Epic Owner !

Actually i don t care about 6k , for me 5k , or 4k full frame, would be more than enough for my needs , what i care the most is about the new color science and the 21 stop !!!

Scarlet owners were never given a price estimate for the "upgrade." All we knew was that it had to be more expensive. And, logically, it had to pretty much equal the difference in price between the Epic and the Scarlet, PLUS the cost of the Epic to Dragon upgrade. In this case, reasonable estimates would be around $16-18K or more.

 

[Elsie N]

...

Elsie... that assumes that everyone is just dying to move up the "red food chain." I assisted photographers shooting Epic prototypes during the first year of Tattoo, spent all the years afterward saving for a Scarlet, enjoyed the hell out of it during 2012--the last thing I want to do is throw down everything I've saved for a camera I first held in 2009.

My money goes to Red only if the new color science and dynamic range exceed that of every other system. If human skin on the new sensor resembles the texture and gradations of Monochrome Epic, then Red's got my cash. Color and range. That's what fascinates me, not the chance to say YEAH MAN I GOTS 5K MX NOW to everybody on facebook.

SKIN TONES AND HIGHLIGHTS... the corner of the model's forehead in the sun, her skin tone straight outta camera... quality in those departments? That's what I'll pay red a fuck ton of money for. Not someone's used three-year-old Epic.

Hi Ryan,

I understand your aims, but I've talked to others privately and have read many statements here on Reduser saying that a lot of Scarlet owners would be happy just to get to a 5K Epic with higher resolution and frame rates.

But just because many, like you, want to step up to the penultimate (we don't really think this is the last camera iteration RED is working on do we? '-) Dragon Epic, that is why I suggested a dual upgrade path for Scarlet owners.

 

[Madjid El ayari]

Scarlet owners were never given a price estimate for the "upgrade." All we knew was that it had to be more expensive. And, logically, it had to pretty much equal the difference in price between the Epic and the Scarlet, PLUS the cost of the Epic to Dragon upgrade. In this case, reasonable estimates would be around $16-18K or more.

Yers that s exactly what i found illogical ! Why most of the scarlet owner have bought a scarlet instead of an epic ?

In this case Scarlet owner are exactly financially treatead like epic owner wich is completely unlogical !!!