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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Enter the Dragon

a lie is a like not matter how much you sugar coat it.

I like many bought the scarlet with the promise of an upgrade as an incentive, don't get me wrong i love the camera, image, raw work flow etc were second to only the epic and alexa imo upon release BUT i'm not stupid, i know technology is a run a way train these days.The Scarlet has its problems but nothing perfect, it was very close for me and the upgrade was a massive plus for my investment. i have produced work that i am very proud of and that won't change.

After just shooting a short with PB recently on the f55 native iso 1250 iso is a game changer ( producers are going to love this ) that alone was the real reason i was excited about the promised dragon upgrade path not the 6k or 5k but the improved / competitive native iso and amazing dynamic range. if i needed variable frame rate i substituted the brain for an epic and would have done the same with dragon epic.
i can't help but feel a bit let down as I do this job to pay my mortgage to support my family not just for fun and this was a big investment for me ( but i do love it that said:) i currently feel like i made a bad a investment which was my own fault for believing.

To rub salt in the redone sales were a kick in the balls with its better specs and lower price. i understood why they did it BUT......

Not sure what this means for me personally and my red affair as i need to be competitive with my offering to my clients and the scarlet is going to be or actually has been beaten.

would be very happy to be wrong and jim replying to this post with "we've found a way to make this work" or "we were only joking, of course we wouldn't go back on our word"

the 2/3 to super 35 development of the scarlet was an improvement with a cost caveat.

The oh sorry its not going to happen is just a let down.

i know i'm fuelling the let down't crews fire but this post is just my opinion and not meant to start a fan boy fight.

i can not wait to see what can be achieved with the dragon, i'm sure its going to be amazing:)

Suresh
 
"Lie" implies malicious intent. I believe Red has VERY high expectations for all of its products and it is very hopeful about what they can accomplish. That spirit has allowed them to accomplish amazing things. When the reality of what Dragon would require busted the plan to be able to upgrade the Scarlet itself, I imagine THEY were disappointed as well (vs. "Aha, we lied and told all those Scarlet buyers they could upgrade, when we knew all along they couldn't.") STILL, they offer the trade in instead. Hardly a thieving hoard of liars.
 
Fair point, lie might be a bit strong and your correct i'm sure there was not intent.

lets see what the epic dragon upgrade package is. Hopefully it will be fair and take into account the reasoning that may have influenced people to buy which was the affordable upgrade solution and not having to buy an new camera
 
RED cannot lie since they have a disclaimer that everything is subject to change. The problem is that they don't do press releases, they do forum posts. Then the problem is most people take these as press releases because they expect press releases, but there aren't any. The problem for RED is that in the past it has worked out well because RED has not always lived up to their forum posts but they usually make it up to the people that matter but can they keep that up? And eventually more people may realize that the RED ecosystem is a tough one to live in and invest in when you have no meaningful timelines and sometimes announcements that come too early to mean anything and there are moving and disappearing product/upgrade targets. This was easier to live with when the competition was standing still, but now Sony comes out with new pro S35 camera products every 6months and they announce them ~3months in advance and release them on time in appropriate quantities...

Still not sure what to do with my Scarlet, want to sell it since I don't use it much these days, but its not clear it makes sense if an upgrade option that might be a better investment is actually coming... or is it? and when?
 
Noah Yuan-Vogel said:
but now Sony comes out with new pro S35 camera products every 6months and they announce them ~3months in advance and release them on time in appropriate quantities...

Still not sure what to do with my Scarlet, want to sell it since I don't use it much these days, but its not clear it makes sense if an upgrade option that might be a better investment is actually coming... or is it? and when?
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A lot of folks freaking out. Must be a solar flare.


Couple quick thoughts.

1. We're likely going to find out Red's full blown plan for Dragon, Dragon upgrades, and Dragon upgrade paths at NAB. Which is soon.
2. Red, you, and I don't want Red making a new camera every 3-6 months. Red appears to be focusing on product cycles of 3-ish years. On top of that. Cameras manufactured back in 2007 (when dinosaurs roamed the Earth) and the content they all shot at 4K is viable for current and future UHD 4K delivery. If you don't see that as one hell of an investment alone you should look to the silhouettes on the horizon.
3. The Scarlet produces 4K today. And you'll want 4K in the future even more so than you do today. I spoke to a old wise oak and it told me this. Trees don't lie.


Couple other thoughts.

1. Red has always been good to their customers. Certainly more clarity and communication than from other manufacturers.
2. Proposed Dragon specifications that we know of today out-spec every other new camera on the market for the most part.
3. Red makes digital cinema cameras. Their focus has always been on 4K+. 1080p was the bastard son of technological limitations, random mistakes, and likely a heavy night of drinking. This is changing right at this very moment.


There's so much focus on yesterday, but let's look on the horizon:

1. 4K delivery in home and in theaters.
2. 4K displays on everything from laser projectors to cell phones.
3. 4K standards are now all officially standardized.
4. 4K up to 60 frames per second through single HDMI (HDMI 2.0) also finalized.
5. Every major display manufacturer is making 4K displays and they have dropped in price tremendously over the last year.
6. The Sony Playstation 4 supports 4K playback. Netflix demoed it in January. Microsoft, Apple, and Google all coming on board. DirectTV is coming to the party too, fashionably late, but incredibly well dressed.


I guess what I'm saying is, if you find yourself not using your Scarlet much these days, you perhaps should be. It's been about a year and a half since I shot anything 1080p. Red allowed me to step up to that realm. That smaller 4K pond is about to flood into a 4K ocean. Luckily you already have a boat today ready for when that flood comes.
 
Fair point, lie might be a bit strong and your correct i'm sure there was not intent.

lets see what the epic dragon upgrade package is. Hopefully it will be fair and take into account the reasoning that may have influenced people to buy which was the affordable upgrade solution and not having to buy an new camera
 
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I am still confused as to why folks are not willing to concede that a trade-in is pretty much the same, in terms of results, as an upgrade. :huh:
 
Good points Phil,

It's not a solar flare though more a realisation of how much more money I'm likely to have to invest to keep this camera competitive.

Upgrade costs ???
New red rocket??? Not sure if its need or not yet but most likely.



That's whole lot of ????

Once the price is out I'll have to make a call if i think I can get that back. In the uk market I don't feel it's going to be that easy

Suresh
 
Was it not said that it would be less than buying a new camera?

or have i been smoking too much crack again.

"obsolition obsolete" wasn't it? and buying into the eco system meant not needing to buy a new camera
 
Suresh Kara said:
Was it not said that it would be less than buying a new camera?

or have i been smoking too much crack again.

"obsolition obsolete" wasn't it? and buying into the eco system meant not needing to buy a new camera
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If EPIC's were going to cost 6k for upgrade, now unknown- perhaps 8k

Scarlet- was unknown, let's say 12k- maybe more, maybe less- but definitely more than the price of the EPIC upgrade.

I think, what puzzling some here is, complain before there is a reason.

The RED ONE upgrade to MX sensor was around 6k I believe, but- till recently you were able to buy a RED ONE MX camera with mount and side module for 4k. My point is, perhaps the trade in is cheaper than the upgrade... no of us owners no- why complain about what we don't know?
 
i think its safe to say that the trade in to an epic dragon will be a lot more than if they had maintained or been able to shall I say do the scarlet dragon

but you are correct, lets wait and see. i hope i am wrong
 
Suresh Kara said:
Was it not said that it would be less than buying a new camera?
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It was. That may still be the target but only time will tell. Lots of other dominoes have to fall before we find out. The lynchpin it seems to me will be the new Epic Dragon price point. Is there any reason to expect that it will replace Epic-X @ $19,000 while Epic-X slips to some new price? If it does, you could see your Scarlet-X to Epic Dragon upgrade come in around $9000, but where will Scarlet-X prices go if that happens? It is a double edged sword. Be careful what you wish for. Yadda yadda yadda.

Which would you rather see; Red cameras continue to hold their value for 5 years, or an inexpensive upgrade? It seems to me that we can't have both.

:)
 
all i want is is a 4k camera with a more competitive native iso and dynamic range that does not need to use a new more expensive rocket card.

for less then buying a new scarlet

new price or old i'm easy

:)

i don't need an epic dragon, Its a waste on my day to day work, 6k will be amazing for features high end adverts but 4k smashes it out of the park for web content and if i needed a epic dragon i would hire.
 
Lots of things changed since the first teasers for EPIC and Scarlet-upgrades. Prices did go down and Dragon gets a new chipset to be able to use all the potential. I'm sure there a more things in the background but those are the two big reasons that we know about. Both of them together made a Scarlet-upgrade senseless, you just have to accept that. RED moved on, so should you. The Scarlet-upgrade has been killed for a reason and believe it or not, RED had their customers in mind when they made that decision.

They never announced final upgrade-plans, they were talking about ideas and concepts here and there, open to the community and they also talked about it when things changed. Don't kill this kind of communication with talking about lies or by quoting old messages and ignoring what happened after that. Upgrade lower priced than a new brain? Yes, but this was their idea, before Dragon screamed for a new chipset. Get over it. ;)

And honestly, why can't you just wait until all the final specs are out? We don't know anything yet about the trade-in-program, well we know that RED is trying to give Scarlet-Users a reasonable way into Dragon-Land instead of saying "sorry, doesn't work, you just have to buy a new EPIC". Doesn't that mean something to you?
 
its means a much larger increase in investment to keep the product competitive than i and many were expecting,but you are right all I / we can do is wait and as you say " get over it;)"

So lets wait
 
expect a sensor & board swap for Epic

I've been hearing rumors of $8k-$10k for Epic owners.

Not sure what the future holds for Scarlet but I guess a $12k+ upgrade path to Dragon

I'm stuck in a rock and a hard place, we'll find out more info in a few weeks

Dragons will begin testing with elite crew members very soon...

so exciting!

:wink:
 
Scarlet to Epic-X upgrade for us without deep pockets???

Scarlet to Epic-X upgrade for us without deep pockets???

Personally I am doing back flips ever since this post was published.

Any chance of a upgrade from Scarlet to Epic-X (current version) for us without deep pockets?

Just thought I would ask just in case :rolleyes5: and forgive me if this has been asked/answered somewhere...


Jarred Land said:
Scarlet users should be doing backflips :) It has been one of the biggest requests from Scarlet owners to be able to trade up to an Epic.. and that was before we knew just how significant Dragon has become :)
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