Enter the Dragon

[steve duncan]

That's already the case.
Scarlet Sensor = Epic Sensor. It's the electronics behind the sensor that are less powerful on Scarlet, so you just can't use the sensor to its full potential...

In that case, as a compromise, would RED be willing to upgrade the Scarlet to utilize the sensors full potential for a price? That would be a pretty smart way to placate thousands of Scarlet owners that got sold into a camera billed to be upgradeable. All the while, putting money into RED's pocket and not alienating their EPIC clients who have a road towards Dragon.

 

[steve duncan]

But while we’re all waiting (like anxious children!) I should probably relate the story of “Saint Jarred of the Mount” or how I came to privately consider Jarred Land as the 11th Apostle! Picture yourself by a warm fireplace with a Christmas tree, children, presents, dogs and cats if you will…

If you want to refer to yourself as an anxious child and the CEO of a camera company as deserving to be in the bible (as 'Saint Jarred'), speak for yourself. I run a rather large company that takes my business seriously, and we give our clients exactly what there suppose to get. I expect the same from the companies I purchase services and products from. I'm obviously concerned, as i'm sure many other are, about how this will play out for Scarlet owners. Fingers crossed that Saint Jarred will make sure it's fair. BTW, if I may say so, adding a female into your warm fuzzy 'Christmas under the tree' fantasy, may be in order.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Yes, a more quiet fan would be nicer.
A few possible improvements I could see are:
- The fan must be bigger. Now it's such a small fan, small fans always creates a much louder and unpleasant noise since they must spin so fast. Some solutions I can imagine
-- Put the fan on top of the brain and make it bigger (80mm or so), so it can suck out air. I think this could be an optional assessory that people could buy.
...

/Andreas

Have you seen the FanPlate?
FYI Price TBA. The website shows only an old prototype.

Pat

 

[Larry Kelly]

What would be interesting is if Red could put the boards that they are taking out of Epics to upgrade to Dragon into Scarlets to upgrade them closer to Epic Specs. That would/should be an inexpensive upgrade as long as the boards physically fit into the Scarlet body.

 

[Eric Santiago]

What would be interesting is if Red could put the boards that they are taking out of Epics to upgrade to Dragon into Scarlets to upgrade them closer to Epic Specs. That would/should be an inexpensive upgrade as long as the boards physically fit into the Scarlet body.

I'm on the fence with this topic.

I got my Scarlet last November and really never felt that I lost out on any options for the future.

However your suggestion (and I apologize if its been said before) is something I would be willing to take

If it doesn't happen so be it.

Eventually I will be one with DRAGON

 

[Alain M]

Hello Ketch! Thanks for the input...Been busy lately and wasn't able to catch up here....let me know when you do the testings...

thanks!

Alain M

 

[Dominick Pietrzak]

When will we hear more updates about Dragon? Especially Scarlet upgrade path and costs!

 

[Freya]

What would be interesting is if Red could put the boards that they are taking out of Epics to upgrade to Dragon into Scarlets to upgrade them closer to Epic Specs. That would/should be an inexpensive upgrade as long as the boards physically fit into the Scarlet body.

That's a nice idea, I like the recycling aspect. Personally I like the trickle down economics stuff.
I'm under the impression that the Epic and Scarlet casings are basically the same.

Freya

 

[Michael Epple]

I really can't get over how whiny Scarlet owners are. Guess what? You can't have an Epic at a scarlet price. You weren't sold a bill of goods. The only upgrade from a scarlet is an Epic and you have that option. Geesh, quit bitching already. This is nuts.

 

[steve duncan]

I really can't get over how whiny Scarlet owners are. Guess what? You can't have an Epic at a scarlet price. You weren't sold a bill of goods. The only upgrade from a scarlet is an Epic and you have that option. Geesh, quit bitching already. This is nuts.

What do you care what Scarlet owners get or don't get from the company? Doesn't concern you. i'm surprised how passive just about every Scarlet owner has been.. I think most Scarlet owners, while not thrilled, are loyal and know that RED will take care of them. If RED announced that the Dragon sensor would only fit in the Scarlet body, I'm sure you'd be up and arms about having to lay out 15k more then what was originally stated.

Unless you were following what the company was promising Scarlet owners back over a year ago, you wouldn't know. The company repeatedly touted that the benefit of buying into the Scarlet would be the fact that it would be an upgradeable brain for years to come. Something they said you wouldn't get with another camera maker. Obviously RED does know this, or they wouldn't be offering a path for Scarlet owners to buy into Epics. Knowing a little about RED, they're true to their word. I expect to see a modest price to upgrade Scarlets w/ Epic boards (3k range), with a year option to further upgrade to Epic Dragon. Remember, they we're telling Scarlet owners they could get a whole new sensor with new boards for 6k. so just swapping out old school epic boards into Scarlet brains, should be relatively cheap.

Everyone wins-- especially RED, since they make most of their money selling proprietary gear around the cameras.

 

[Augusto Giachino]

For my figurative two cents, the upgrade path Red is now offering from Scarlet to Epic is the right one, and I hope they don't deviate from it. It moves the client up to full capability, and minimizes transition overhead for both client and vendor.

Augusto

 

[Andrew Allsbury]

I agree Augusto, and I was a very early adopter of the Scarlet, who purchased an Epic and sold my Scarlet after the announcement that the Scarlet would not be upgradable. My thought was wow, if I didn't need an Epic right now, it's awesome that Red is offering a trade up program like the R1MX -> Epic program. We are a small company with a small budget and I'm not sure what all the noise is about.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

The company repeatedly touted that the benefit of buying into the Scarlet would be the fact that it would be an upgradeable brain for years to come.

...

Remember, they we're telling Scarlet owners they could get a whole new sensor with new boards for 6k.

Exactly when did these things happen? :huh: To be clear, they do tout "obsolescence obsolete" but a trade-in program definitely honors that.

I bought my Scarlet a few days after they were introduced. I love it. I would love to upgrade to Dragon. But I have been paying close attention and the two things stated above never happened. The most generous interpretation of your comments I can make is that you are exaggerating.

And I suspect your characterization of how easy it is to upgrade Scarlet to Epic is a bit naive. (Ah, hell, just have one of the receptionists throw a couple those extra Epic boards into the Scarlet in between phone calls - LOL)

And, something lost on a lot of people here is that RED never promised two levels of Dragon; i.e. a Scarlet Dragon and an Epic Dragon. The only logical inference during all of this discussion was that the path from Scarlet and from Epic would end up in the same place (Epic Dragon) and that, in the end, the costs would be similar, if not somewhat favoring original Epic buyers.

If I don't upgrade my Scarlet, I still have a great camera. If I do, I'd expect the cost to be quite similar to what it would have cost to get a Epic and then upgrade. I am just thankful RED will recognize the value of my Scarlet in a trade-in so I won't have to go to the market and sell it.

 

[MIKE TESTIN]

Guys, it clearly states on the Scarlet sale page on reds site that the sensor is upgradable. I don't see where it says what the new official upgrade plan will be but I have to assume it'll be fair. Stop the panic!!

 

[Timur Civan]

As a RED Scarlet owner, I certainly hope the company takes into account (when determining the upgrade price), that many Scarlet owners like myself, only bought into RED because it was clearly marketed as a body that would be upgradeable.

Well, i believe the idea was, all the accesories are interchangeable, and the brain was the only part you changed out. Actually.... the dragon "should" be a whole new camera. Remember, the roadmap for epic? You have Scarlet S35, and Epic S35 as of now. The Epic FF35 is looking like its going to be the Dragon. Instead of buying a new camera, Red is giving epic owners the option to save what could potentially be $20,000 and only have to upgrade the sensor. And you know what? Scarlet owners get full trade in value if they choose to towards the Epic/Dragon. All the support is interchangeable. I dont really see what the problem is. They are being as fair as they can without throwing boxes of epics off the back of a truck to the "starving" crowd.

The idea was you bought the brain you needed, and when the time for an upgrade came, you only had to upgrade the brain to new specs. Thats what "Obsolescence Obsolete" means.

 

[Mark T Workman]

Excellent Post Timur, really thorough!

Steve, you completely missed the real point of the numerology in my post! Did you also simply answer the “nature or nuture” question for the “philosopher” in all of us once again? Let us hope not! I'm forever on the side of nurture but even I have my doubts...

Remember the over riding message of the Apostles is to keep love in your heart for mankind not on one day but in all 365…, 0123!
Make a decision to be happy (on the inside) now and you will attract a life of happiness on the outside. This is the lesson one might well learn (technically speaking!) from the story of "Saint Jarred of the Mount" or “Saint Jarred and the Dragon!”

Certainly all this fuss you’re making over the “Scarlet concern” can be easily solved with RED simply making a two (or three!) fold offer, specifically to the RED Scarlet users (after the Epic Upgrades!) with a “trade in” and also an “opt in” price offer for both Epic and Dragon that covers the product jump for all Scarlet users who want to upgrade. This would cover the upgrade issue completely and keep the cash flow moving as well as possible even in a fairly flat market for “renters” monetizing cameras...

I have no doubt Saint Jarred is seriously considering this...

As for the idea of rebuilding Scarlets into Epics, I’d leave that purely to RED’s discretion because (having built one super computer for my Scarlet in 2010 now on its third rebuild in 2013!) this can be a really seriously difficult slope of diminishing returns as a host of goblins await you upon each build…

If an offer isn’t forth coming to you (after the Epic upgrades!) as an actual RED SCARLET owner (not a third party buyer mind you!) then I’d suggest you ASK FOR ONE, cite the “upgrade issue,” and your particular desires as a Scarlet customer. Or keep using what you have! I know I will remain happy with my choice to opt in for Scarlet after the tsunami because of that timing and also because the R1 was too large and the Epic, then too expensive after outfitting… It also takes a fine R3D too!

I have no doubt we will see more of the lens and file issues for Dragon as this story continues...

 

[Phil Holland]

Just a thought I had about pixel density. When Dragon's first info was initially launched last year and we learned it's pixel size. I immediately thought back to the graphic that Timur just posted in regards to "Epic 645".

Now follow me here. I'm firmly in the belief that UHD 4K (and what we consider 4K "Full") are going to be the golden production standard for some time. However, a UHD 8K spec was also part of the deal from our glorious ITU masters. Currently I don't know exactly where UHD 8K lands in our delivery spectrum, but I can see it being "sexy time" on an IMAX screen eventually.

So, where does my mind go?

- Epic 645 = 56x42mm. 5-perf 65mm Film = 52.5x23mm
- Proper resolution for a "good" 8K debayer = 10.2K
- Resolution of a potential Epic 645 sensor (if nothing changed) = 11.2K

Which led me to start crunching numbers on data rates, record times, and things like that.

One day I think we'll see that massive sensor. Don't know when or if there will be an industry demand for it in the next 3-5 years. So we have a bit of time. I do think a 645 body could use our modules and components we've invested in today though.

617 is a different body design for sure if it ever happens. That's handsomely over twice as wide as 15-perf 70mm Film, which is crazy crazy. It would work out to about 37.2K if Dragon's design was utilized. I have no freaking clue on how we'd display that at the moment sans Genlocking projectors

 

[Nick Morrison]

Just a thought I had about pixel density. When Dragon's first info was initially launched last year and we learned it's pixel size. I immediately thought back to the graphic that Timur just posted in regards to "Epic 645".

Now follow me here. I'm firmly in the belief that UHD 4K (and what we consider 4K "Full") are going to be the golden production standard for some time. However, a UHD 8K spec was also part of the deal from our glorious ITU masters. Currently I don't know exactly where UHD 8K lands in our delivery spectrum, but I can see it being "sexy time" on an IMAX screen eventually.

So, where does my mind go?

- Epic 645 = 56x42mm. 5-perf 65mm Film = 52.5x23mm
- Proper resolution for a "good" 8K debayer = 10.2K
- Resolution of a potential Epic 645 sensor (if nothing changed) = 11.2K

Which led me to start crunching numbers on data rates, record times, and things like that.

One day I think we'll see that massive sensor. Don't know when or if there will be an industry demand for it in the next 3-5 years. So we have a bit of time. I do think a 645 body could use our modules and components we've invested in today though.

617 is a different body design for sure if it ever happens. That's handsomely over twice as wide as 15-perf 70mm Film, which is crazy crazy. It would work out to about 37.2K if Dragon's design was utilized. I have no freaking clue on how we'd display that at the moment sans Genlocking projectors

Thanks for crunching the numbers.

I already got my set of Hassy's ready!

 

[Mark Andersen]

645 is a potential reality. I don't see 617 ever working for motion, what lenses are you gonna find, unless some really pricy glass is developed later down the road. The 617 stills cameras use large format view camera lenses which are pretty unworkable for film production. The biggest question is do we really need anything beyond 8K, some would argue that for conventional screening situations 4K is optimum. It's that whole viewing angle vs visible pixels argument. When we get up to 8K and beyond we are talking about video walls that you walk up to and and look at close range, already gonna need some pretty amazing glass to resolve all that. 4K is the traditional sweet spot, 8K and beyond is for special exhibits, walls, IMAX or other special type theaters. My 2 cents, I'd like to hear other points of view.

 

[Phil Holland]

4K is the traditional sweet spot, 8K and beyond is for special exhibits, walls, IMAX or other special type theaters. My 2 cents, I'd like to hear other points of view.

Generally speaking I agree. I think there will and are people who desire 8K in the industry today. It's a very, very small number who need this today. It will grow if the standard saturates.

i think the camera that will sell the most this year and through about 2015/16 will be focused on created 4K content. Which is why I'm really excited about what Dragon is now.

That said, since Red makes cameras that record at multiple formats who is to say that they won't want to go larger. We'll still be able to shoot at smaller resolutions via the different formats.

Just two ways to look at it. Neither are bad or good. If Dragon goes 645 one day though, it's gonna be a bit more costly than we think. Big sensors cost moolah. Data throughput is going to be tremendous during capture and post.

Personally I need and the vast majority needs a camera that creates the highest quality 4K on the market. Luckily Red makes that now and is certainly planning that in the future.