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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon....

Kemalettin Sert said:
yeah i know bigger is better what im saying is 5D and D800 has same sensor size however D800 beats 5D mk3 on dynamic range and resolution wise.If Nikon did this keeping the sensor size same why going towards to changing sensor size in cinema.
Im so damn happy with these updates and sure im gonna upgrade to Dragon only thing worries me is whats gonna happen to all these cinema lenses in next 5 years..
Click to expand...

I get your point. If Nikon can put more pixels in the same area and not sacrifice DR (maybe even improve it), why doesn't RED do it instead of increasing the size of the sensor?

Traditionally, there have been tradeoffs. I don't follow still cameras but I have to wonder if Nikon sacrificed some other technical detail for numbers of pixels in the same space.

As far as lenses go, IF you want to use a certain current set of lenses that don't quite cover 6K, you can always use a converter like the one Bob referred to, OR set your camera to 5K. I'm guessing that, with the DRAGON sensor, 5K would be a compromise we all could live with. ...just look at the results of 5K so far... https://vimeo.com/63060016
 
Joe Kleber said:
I get your point. If Nikon can put more pixels in the same area and not sacrifice DR (maybe even improve it), why doesn't RED do it instead of increasing the size of the sensor?

Traditionally, there have been tradeoffs. I don't follow still cameras but I have to wonder if Nikon sacrificed some other technical detail for numbers of pixels in the same space.

As far as lenses go, IF you want to use a certain current set of lenses that don't quite cover 6K, you can always use a converter like the one Bob referred to, OR set your camera to 5K. I'm guessing that, with the DRAGON sensor, 5K would be a compromise we all could live with. ...just look at the results of 5K so far... https://vimeo.com/63060016
Click to expand...


However I remember RED mentioning that the new 6K sensor would be with a 1.2 crop compared to a 1.3 5K crop on Epic. So by my math they would be packing more pixels in a relatively larger size sensor. Still not full frame though.
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
yeah i know bigger is better what im saying is 5D and D800 has same sensor size however D800 beats 5D mk3 on dynamic range and resolution wise.If Nikon did this keeping the sensor size same why going towards to changing sensor size in cinema.
Im so damn happy with these updates and sure im gonna upgrade to Dragon only thing worries me is whats gonna happen to all these cinema lenses in next 5 years..
Click to expand...

If you are purely looking at it from the same size perspective.. then Dragon wins same size vs same size. Dragon pixels are smaller than Epic's, just like D800 pixels are smaller than the 5DM3, so , as Phil mentioned, if you use only the S35 area of the Dragon sensor, to match the 5k Epic, Dragon will still have more resolution and more dynamic range. Remember you don't need to shoot at the full 6k. You can shoot at 5.5k, keep the same image circle size as you did on Epic and use all your lenses, and end up with a better picture.
 
Jarred Land said:
keep the same image circle size as you did on Epic and use all your lenses, and end up with a better picture.
Click to expand...

can we see one of those better picture ?
:)

and please , when you will post it , please post R3D (along with new RCX i guess )... watch some video color corrected won't really tell much ...

soon?

thanks
g
 
Jarred Land said:
If you are purely looking at it from the same size perspective.. then Dragon wins same size vs same size. Dragon pixels are smaller than Epic's, just like D800 pixels are smaller than the 5DM3, so , as Phil mentioned, if you use only the S35 area of the Dragon sensor, to match the 5k Epic, Dragon will still have more resolution and more dynamic range. Remember you don't need to shoot at the full 6k. You can shoot at 5.5k, keep the same image circle size as you did on Epic and use all your lenses, and end up with a better picture.
Click to expand...
Plus, 5K being a tad smaller on the sensor, we might even be able to shoot 5K on lenses that were just on the limit with the MX. The Tokina 11-16 for example has a (very little) vignetting in the corners at 11 mm, this will probably solve it. Not that it was a big issue. ;)
 
Nils Ruinet said:
Plus, 5K being a tad smaller on the sensor, we might even be able to shoot 5K on lenses that were just on the limit with the MX. The Tokina 11-16 for example has a (very little) vignetting in the corners at 11 mm, this will probably solve it. Not that it was a big issue. ;)
Click to expand...

Correct. Damn near every lens designed for S35 and likely all APS-C sized sensors should cover Dragon at 5K. Anything that covers Mysterium-X today at 5K will cover Dragon at 5.5K as well.

What I'm saying is, don't sell that glass just because it won't cover 6K. You'll have a fully capable lens that will cover other formats that exist within Dragon's sensor.

Remember Epic Dragon's maximum resolution is a choice just like the format (and aspect ratio for that matter) you choose to shoot with.

Red at one point stated something to the likes of "one camera any lens", which was a huge selling point for me when the DSMC bodies came into existance. Now with where specific resolutions fall that's even truer when it comes to formats relative to their film negative sizes, proper debayer, and possible potential of resolved detail.

Simply put, for a true 4K finish shooting at 5K with your debayer gets you "technically there". Anything above that is going to help provide that super sampling effect to help really bring out that detail. REDCODE scales lovely so shooting at 4K and even 3K can help produce a 4K finish. S35 film resolved around 4K resolution, which is likely the whole reason for this. Shooting around 2.5K will net out to a lovely 2K image and also happens to land with in the S16 frame, which also happens to be the resolving limit of that format as well.

Basically what I'm saying is this Red Dragon sensor is actually a very true motion picture film alternative/replacement from an industry and technical standpoint. The scary thing here is that in a few ways it's going to surpass film. That's really exciting stuff if you think about it.

I've never met the folks designing the sensor, but we are certainly on the same page and I love what they've been up to.
 
An interesting "side effect" of the Dragon is the possibility to shoot high speed, 240 or 300 FPS, at a higher resolution that the present 2K with tons of semi-abandoned 16mm or S16 lenses... looks like there is an immediate 10% increase to 2.2K, and the possibility of setting the sensor effective operating size may allow to "open" it from the present approximate S16 size to what each lens may reasonably allow. That will be great to explore.
Guido
 
I think that I got how the new sensor works:

It's capable (based on the technical specs) of 16.5 stops of Dynamic Range, probably because the A/D converter is 16 bits.
Ok, but we know that it's capable of doing more then just 16.5 stops (based on the chart).
So probably it's using a technology similar to the one that is using Arri on their Alexa right now (dual readout with different amplification).
Minimal amplification is the one that matches 200ASA, with its 16.5 stops.
Maximum amplification is the one that matches 2000ASA, with its 16.5 stops.
Both exposure have around 12 stops in common, with different s/n ratio.
Each exposure is capable of 4 stops more that the other one can't record.
Combined together the two exposure you have at least 18 stops at each ISO, distributed in a different way but probably balanced at 800.

I'm going to sleep. I don't know what I wrote. I think that I'll read it again tomorrow.
 
That is not how the Alexa works.

The Alexa has 14 stops at 200 Asa
The Alexa has 14 stops at 1600 Asa

You are just moving the mid grey point when you change the Asa. You can verify this by looking at a waveform when looking at the extreme ISO's.

Just as it's minimal light level is the same at 200 as 1600, it just boost the black level at higher ISO. You can achieve the same thing if you just use LGG on any 800 ISP footage
 
Matthew Riggieri said:
That is not how the Alexa works.

The Alexa has 14 stops at 200 Asa
The Alexa has 14 stops at 1600 Asa

You are just moving the mid grey point when you change the Asa. You can verify this by looking at a waveform when looking at the extreme ISO's.

Just as it's minimal light level is the same at 200 as 1600, it just boost the black level at higher ISO. You can achieve the same thing if you just use LGG on any 800 ISP footage
Click to expand...

I'm talking at the sensor level, not after being processed.
 
Rosario Balistreri said:
I think that I got how the new sensor works:


So probably it's using a technology similar to the one that is using Arri on their Alexa right now (dual readout with different amplification)..
Click to expand...

Dragon is a completely new pixel design developed internally at RED for RED and only for RED. Dragon does not use any dual readout, analogue gain offsets, binning or combining tricks... it is natively just one badass mofo with more native latitude on top and more native latitude on bottom.

But... we kept HDRX in there as an option, just in case you wanted to go ahead and get crazy.
 
Whoa, whoa whoa; Jarred, you didn't deny that the Gaga shot is an inez/dragon/vinoodh love-sandwich... does that mean it is?
 
Jarred Land said:
Dragon -- it is natively just one badass mofo with more native latitude on top and more native latitude on bottom.
Click to expand...

This is one awesome comment Jarred!

How much on top?
 
Jarred Land said:
But... we kept HDRX in there as an option, just in case you wanted to go ahead and get crazy.
Click to expand...

Can't wait to get a little crazy. With RED not saying too much of what the latitude is; it's more than likely going to be mind blowing. (even for the anti-RED crowd)

Excited to upgrade my camera, even more excited for everyone at RED.
 
Mike P. said:
Whoa, whoa whoa; Jarred, you didn't deny that the Gaga shot is an inez/dragon/vinoodh love-sandwich... does that mean it is?
Click to expand...

I don't think I am allowed to say what they shot , but I can say that Inez and Vinoodh definitely were the first photographers to shoot Dragon.
 
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