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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DRAGON vs EPIC MX Noise - NOT GOOD

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CJ Roy said:
I think this issue warrants us to stay on topic. This is about a side by side test where the Dragon displays more noise than the MX. I was sent another Dragon vs MX side by side test today which displays very similar results. I really don't understand the subjective debates here, as I'm pretty sure the expectation all around was that the Dragon is cleaner than the MX, toe to toe. Otherwise this thread wouldn't be news.
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This is a fair statement. I did stray a bit, sorry about that.

Battistella
 
David Battistella said:
Yeah,

its a a curious discussion for sure.

I see see marks stuff and I say, clean blacks, nice highlight rolloff, low noise and I'm quite happy. The thing about shadow noise is that it's crawly and requires cleanup, not so much a problem in mids and highs. The hard clip at the top of MX is gone and that is a huge improvement right there.

all of the dragon stuff has a certain aesthetic that is RED, my preference leans more toward a cleaner image out of the box, where grain can be added if desired. I'd rather have that than trying to remove excess grain.

It is also the creative dividing line between film and video, that is also for sure so I can see how film guys (and I love film) want more texture.

Battistella
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I like the rolloff as well but to me it's strange how it's applied in RCXP. when sliding the histogram up and down RCXP does so with a rolloff. To me thats something that at that stage should be user applied. for example if I move from 800iso to 1600 iso I do not want the image to change any different than removing ND.3 and if the highlights hit the ceiling, then I want them to go trough and burn, not as it is now where te highlights hit's into a dynamic roundning quite early and "bend" the picture so that the light is not just doubled, in fact the whole contrast ratio of the picture is change. It's very artistically nice looking but it's just not right... This even happens if I slide iso around when being in RCXP's so called " linear colorspace" under advanced settings and to me that behavior is not linear at all. It should be linear float which its not. So clearly something is wrong with the terminology or the color science. As I think a lot of people just want to get a linear 16 bit file from the camera.
 
Björn Benckert said:
I like the rolloff as well but to me it's strange how it's applied in RCXP. when sliding the histogram up and down RCXP does so with a rolloff. To me thats something that at that stage should be user applied. for example if I move from 800iso to 1600 iso I do not want the image to change any different than removing ND.3 and if the highlights hit the ceiling, then I want them to go trough and burn, not as it is now where te highlights hit's into a dynamic roundning quite early and "bend" the picture so that the light is not just doubled, in fact the whole contrast ratio of the picture is change. It's very artistically nice looking but it's just not right... This even happens if I slide iso around when being in RCXP's so called " linear colorspace" under advanced settings and to me that behavior is not linear at all. It should be linear float which its not. So clearly something is wrong with the terminology or the color science. As I think a lot of people just want to get a linear 16 bit file from the camera.
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The two sides of the equation are capture and Processing. I am seeing what you are seeing on the linear side. RCX changed with the Dragon build and the MX stuff got a lot better too. One thing I do notice with dragon is far less need to move the mid tones around and we are back to simple s curves to bring the image in range.

It does feel as though the post processing has changed.

David
 
I'm surprised there aren't many (if any) post people chiming in on the differences in noise between the MX and the Dragon. So far it seems to be shooter-only folks who have come to expect exhibition-ready footage from their cameras. (A testament to RED for raising their expectations)

I admit I'm not much of a pixel peeper, rather an image eye-baller who looks at what I've shot and finished and often decide if it's good enough based just on my own subjective feeling.

Not trying to downplay what bothers others, but I would be interested in how the post people see the change in Dragon footage, especially after the OLPF change. Is their job harder?... easier?... about the same?

The reason I'm hoping to bring these varied players into the noise equation is because I'm worried RED might take too big a swing at "fixing" what some prefer not to work with or around. I'm glad RED is working on the problem, just hope they don't over-compensate and take away too much of what we have benefited from when the flare issue was addressed.

That is, I hope there is a sweet spot that doesn't take away too many of the gains we have available from better highlights.
 
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Hi,

this thread is an in-depth follow-up of other threads that deal with Dragons main issue: Dragon's sensitivity and noise floor. Eric's findings are very close to mine findings.

I've said it in various threads and say it again:

1. over-all sensitivity is on par with MX

2. DR on top is about 2 stops or even 3 significantly better.

3. colour, especially skin tones is much, much improved, and finally in Alexa territory - world class.

The upgrade is worthy every penny if the above mentioned points are of any concern. If one is looking for night vision equipment don't buy a Red camera, don't buy Arri. Get a DSLR like the new Sony but don't blame me if you can't grade or pull a key from it.

Ok. The noise in the last builds with the new OLPF is a bit colourful to say the least. I already shot some GS stuff with my dragonised Epic on payed jobs. I urge everyone to shoot GS at 320 ASA with Dragon, like one did with MX. Shooting green screen at ISO 800 or lower will lead to noisy shadows in a colour-range that is not favourable for keying. Don't use tungsten lights. I use ADSK Flame/Smoke for post and know the tools a bit.

---

I appreciate Red's reaction on this thread a lot and look forward to the next iteration of Red's colour science. With DragonColour Red got a lot right. Now it need's some tweaking in the blacks. This is a great thread and good reading. Reduser at its best!

For comparison, a link to the noise of my Dragon, new OLPF and 20 min. warm-up: https://www.dropbox.com/s/lfpi8vdd6u9shr9/A003_C002_0604X2.0000054F.R3D


Hans
 
Elsie N said:
The reason I'm hoping to bring these varied players into the noise equation is because I'm worried RED might take too big a swing at "fixing" what some prefer not to work with or around. I'm glad RED is working on the problem, just hope they don't over-compensate ....clipped
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It is quite likely this is what they have already done with the new OLPF/sensorcal.

If I was an owner i would be more concerned that soon there will be 3 versions of Dragon in the wild which have the same sensor but very different ways of seeing the same thing.
 
Ivan McCullough said:
If I was an owner i would be more concerned that soon there will be 3 versions of Dragon in the wild which have the same sensor but very different ways of seeing the same thing.
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3 "versions" of a camera all reacting to light in different ways is a SURE FIRE way to send producers running for the hills.
 
Hans von Sonntag said:
Hi,

this thread is an in-depth follow-up of other threads that deal with Dragons main issue: Dragon's sensitivity and noise floor. Eric's findings are very close to mine findings.

I've said it in various threads and say it again:

1. over-all sensitivity is on par with MX

2. DR on top is about 2 stops or even 3 significantly better.

3. colour, especially skin tones is much, much improved, and finally in Alexa territory - world class.

The upgrade is worthy every penny if the above mentioned points are of any concern. If one is looking for night vision equipment don't buy a Red camera, don't buy Arri. Get a DSLR like the new Sony but don't blame me if you can't grade or pull a key from it.

Ok. The noise in the last builds with the new OLPF is a bit colourful to say the least. I already shot some GS stuff with my dragonised Epic on payed jobs. I urge everyone to shoot GS at 320 ASA with Dragon, like one did with MX. Shooting green screen at ISO 800 or lower will lead to noisy shadows in a colour-range that is not favourable for keying. Don't use tungsten lights. I use ADSK Flame/Smoke for post and know the tools a bit.

---

I appreciate Red's reaction on this thread a lot and look forward to the next iteration of Red's colour science. With DragonColour Red got a lot right. Now it need's some tweaking in the blacks. This is a great thread and good reading. Reduser at its best!

For comparison, a link to the noise of my Dragon, new OLPF and 20 min. warm-up: https://www.dropbox.com/s/lfpi8vdd6u9shr9/A003_C002_0604X2.0000054F.R3D


Hans
Click to expand...

Hans, thank you so much for this post. I am on a job now that has green screen and I have been concerned in the days leading up to the shoot about the noise on the Dragon causing problems. I cannot shoot 320 as we have some high speed work and need to be on zooms due to limited time with talent. Even at 320 I am seeing more noise in Dragon throughout the image, even in mid tones. I am going to switch the job to MX.
 
I know the OLPF upgrade is a physical replacement, but wonder if a "mode" setting switch might allow for "optimized" shooting of both low light scenes with least noise possible as well as a setting for well lit scenes to preserve highlight rolloff? Would that defeat the purpose of 16.5 stops? Don't want to forgo one for the other but a fair amount of our work is shot in the dark & this is a little concerning as our Dragon is imminent. Thanks RED for being on top of this...
 
Indeed...low light performance is a high priority for us. Thank you Mark.
 
Noise test ...

Noise test ...

i just shot a fast test

sorry, only temporary on wetransfer:

http://we.tl/3SoWfYBxcO

camera had the black shading from last week, no new one (i did a shading after this test, but there is no difference in the noise, so it´s not important here)

Temperature of Sensor: 65

only the light from the painting, and a bit from the left, and very very low from the back, window in the back is about 8m behind - so, in reality it IS dark in this floor ... it´s like the image i named: "out of cam"

what you say ?
is this "too" noisy ?

of course there is noise, but see the conditions - i did not a comparison with my MX, will do this week ... but for me all seems to be quite ok, as the areas "with noise" ARE underexposed ...

and, yes, there is a better image with ADD, the dream would be to have this ADD "noise floor" without the rendering time or with a firmware update ...

the "graded" image is a fast attempt to get the best, and for me this looks quite nice ... even there you can add a bit NR on it and then the wall is complete clean ...

what you think ?
 
it´s with text in it to explain some things - but my partner here uploaded it in tiff , urghs, i try with jpg later ;-)
 
okay, MX just came back from shoot, here are some comparisons ... very fast done

http://we.tl/RSWT6cTGf6

i think, Dragon has bit more noise here than the MX, but, of course, there is more in the highlight, same stop ... if i would have a faster glas here, i am sure Dragon has less noise as the shadows would get even more light ...

with ADD, Dragon is cleaner ... no surprise.

so, actually MX seems to have bit less noise right now, let´s see what Red will present here ... i shoot stuff at the weekend in nature and all images are quite clean, ...
 
we have rough weather in the last 30min here and there seems to be problems with the connections, internet is very slow - so sorry i can´t upload huge files at the moment, ... but as summary, i can´t say there is so much noise at (my) dragon as posted here at first, MX is very similar, that´s true ... very interested how it will go on, ...
 
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