DRAGON vs EPIC MX Noise - NOT GOOD

[Eric Haase]

Tonight I did a side by side with both cameras- Epic MX and Dragon.

1) Both cameras were freshly updated to current release build 5.1.51
2) Both cameras were brought to 65 degrees, set in Adaptive fan with target 65 degrees and blackshaded with port caps on and dark fabric over port cap as well. Blackshade was saved to USER HS and the I made sure to select USER HS and press SET.
3) Cameras both shooting with Leica R 19mm at a 2.8
4) Both cameras at 6:1 compression
5) Dragon at 6KHD, MX at 5KHD
6) ISO set to 800 on both

At the bottom of this post is a link to the R3D files (10 frame trims of each shot) A001 is MX, A006 is DRAGON. I have also included photos of the cameras' touch screens to demonstrate how the goalposts and exposure tool behaves differently on MX and DRAGON, as I documented in a previous thread found here: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...POSTS-and-Exposure-Tool&p=1376074#post1376074

You can draw your own conclusions and FWIW here are mine:

1. (My) Dragon is noticeably noisier than MX in the lowlight areas, given same firmware, exposure, ISO setting, temperature and proper blackshade.

2. Dragon noise is different than MX in color and contrast.

3. Goalposts light up full on Dragon and only halfway on MX given the same scene. Exposure tool, however and conversely, shows less purple on Dragon and more purple on MX given same scene.

4. I studied some clips that a friend provided shot on Dragon with the old OLPF- very low light scenes. Those images were MUCH cleaner. Phil Holland's original low light images with old OLPF were MUCH CLEANER.

5. I am very disappointed with the upgrade and I hope this can be resolved very quickly. I tried to test this as thoroughly as possible given I am only interested in comparing the noise in the lowlights and tried to have the fewest amount of variables possible. I hope others can do similar tests. I'd love to see a solution to this. For me, now, it is a real issue. I'll be shooting everything at the lowest possible ISO to fill the sensor with light until that fix is reached.

I am more than happy to work with anyone from RED on this.

***************DOWNLOAD R3D TRIMS and touchscreen photos HERE: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ayb9wvkwvy4ju6y/R3D TRIMS NOISE TEST.zip

 

[Nick Fury]

Hi Eric,

My Carbon Fiber Dragon, which exhibited the same phenomenon, you behave described, on 5.1.48, with new OLPF, has been at RED, for a few days. I'll report back, as they give me info.

 

[Matt Ryan]

What's interesting is when I change Dragon to Dragoncolor/redgamma 4, The noise indicator bar goes empty. Then Switch the RC3 RG3 and the noise bar comes back almost full... Shouldn't it be even more full considering RG4 crushes the low end harder?

Also, with same settings, Dragon appears to be crushed more on the low end. Did you shoot with same exposure? If Dragon has more DR shouldn't we see more in the low end? These are straight with no corrections other than changing both to Dragoncolor/Redgamma4.

Redlogfilm/Dragoncolor at 100%:
MX

Dragon

 

[R Fogg]

Can someone from Red please chime in on this issue? This issue appears to be widespread and some of us are at least 2 weeks into this with Red Tech support with no substantive solutions.

 

[Eric Haase]

@Matt - yes same exposure- the lens was physically moved from one camera to the other and the iris is clicked so the stop is locked in at 2.8. I wouldn't trust the scopes in RCX for the goalposts- they seem to be really buggy.

 

[Matt Ryan]

@Matt - yes same exposure- the lens was physically moved from one camera to the other and the iris is clicked so the stop is locked in at 2.8. I wouldn't trust the scopes in RCX for the goalposts- they seem to be really buggy.

yeah, other than the scopes, I don't understand why RG4 crushes Dragon footage more than MX... Redgamma 3 is the same way, crushed more on Dragon...

 

[Eric Haase]

Also please look at the refrigerator- it is the area I am most interested in when looking at noise. It's an area of the frame I would expect to contain lots of useable information and it is where the difference in noise is most pronounced.

 

[Matt Ryan]

Also please look at the refrigerator- it is the area I am most interested in when looking at noise. It's an area of the frame I would expect to contain lots of useable information and it is where the difference in noise is most pronounced.

Not even to mention it's less exposed on Dragon. Same for the area above the trashcan below the counter frame right. Also look at the wine bottles in the background and their exposure. More info in the MX frame... I don't get it...

 

[Matt Ryan]

But at 12,800... MX is clipped here and Dragon is not even close.

Howerver, I will add Dragons color is such a huge improvement over MX.

 

[Peter Majtan]

Redlogfilm/Dragoncolor at 100%:
MX

Dragon

Is it just me, or does the Dragon look cleaner in this comparison?

:sifone: Peter

 

[Matt Ryan]

Is it just me, or does the Dragon look cleaner in this comparison?

:sifone: Peter

Depends where you look lol. In that corner is does look slightly cleaner. But look around the frame.

 

[Eric Haase]

Is it just me, or does the Dragon look cleaner in this comparison?

:sifone: Peter

Please download the R3D files and have a look- those screenshots are pretty misleading. Ugh.

 

[Peter Majtan]

Matt - your 12800 ISO is rather self telling - especially I like the colour rendition of the Dragon in those heavily underexposed areas.
I think the trick is NOT TO expose the two sensors in the same exact way. Given the amount of data retained in the highlights - the Dragon could have been exposed 1 or even 2 stops in favour of the shadows.
Just to clarify - I am not disputing that this issue is indeed strange and worth more investigation and follow up...

:sifone: Peter

 

[Matt Ryan]

Matt - your 12800 ISO is rather self telling - especially I like the colour rendition of the Dragon in those heavily underexposed areas.
I think the trick is NOT TO expose the two sensors in the same exact way. Given the amount of data retained in the highlights - the Dragon could have been exposed 1 or even 2 stops in favour of the shadows.
Just to clarify - I am not disputing that this issue is indeed strange and worth more investigation and follow up...

:sifone: Peter

Very true, but then that refutes the claims that Dragons noise floor is improved if we have to open up more on Dragon vs. MX at same ISO right? In theory we should see more into the low end with less noise on Dragon at the same settings/ISO/F stop on both cameras.

 

[David Battistella]

This is an interesting test.

It would be cool to see a comparison test with two dragons as well. Maybe Phil's dragon or Peter Lyons Collister if you guys can arrange to get together in LA? Or two dragons with different FW builds to see if it's fw related.

I don't get why everything changed so much?

Battistella

 

[Kyle Wright]

My completely subjective opinion agrees that the Dragon seems quite noisy in the shadows and underexposed areas at ISO 800. I haven't done any side by side tests, but feel that the noise floor is uglier than MX. And before anyone asks, yes, I always blackshade at operating temp (60°) and make sure it is applied.

At low ISO, I really like how the Dragon looks. But I expected a bit more from it in dark scenes at 800 ISO, especially seeing as how "2000 ISO is the new 800." I also feel that I get a bit of magenta noise in my shadows, whereas the MX noise was more color neutral (very noticeable when capping the lens and cranking it up to 12800).

Highlight roll off on the Dragon is awesome. I love shooting out in the daylight with this thing. Feed it a ton of light and it really shines. But for those times when you can't get it a ton of light, be careful. I did some shooting with a tilt-shift lens (F4.0) in slow motion and had to ISO up in a couple spots (1000 and 1280) and wasn't too pleased with the result. Unfortunately I didn't have the budget for enough lights to light up the whole area I was shooting (big room + 72FPS + slow lens), or I would have just brought up the overall level and kept my ISO down.

 

[CJ Roy]

Matt - your 12800 ISO is rather self telling - especially I like the colour rendition of the Dragon in those heavily underexposed areas.

The noise difference between the two is fairly dramatic, especially in the underexposed areas. I'd recommend putting both clips in a RC-X timeline, view at Full / 100% and loop it during playback.

The Dragon has a lot more chromatic noise in it. The MX has noise, but it's not as bad.

 

[Nick Morrison]

My completely subjective opinion agrees that the Dragon seems quite noisy in the shadows and underexposed areas at ISO 800. I haven't done any side by side tests, but feel that the noise floor is uglier than MX. And before anyone asks, yes, I always blackshade at operating temp (60°) and make sure it is applied.

At low ISO, I really like how the Dragon looks. But I expected a bit more from it in dark scenes at 800 ISO, especially seeing as how "2000 ISO is the new 800." I also feel that I get a bit of magenta noise in my shadows, whereas the MX noise was more color neutral (very noticeable when capping the lens and cranking it up to 12800).

Highlight roll off on the Dragon is awesome. I love shooting out in the daylight with this thing. Feed it a ton of light and it really shines. But for those times when you can't get it a ton of light, be careful. I did some shooting with a tilt-shift lens (F4.0) in slow motion and had to ISO up in a couple spots (1000 and 1280) and wasn't too pleased with the result. Unfortunately I didn't have the budget for enough lights to light up the whole area I was shooting (big room + 72FPS + slow lens), or I would have just brought up the overall level and kept my ISO down.

Interesting, but by all accounts the old OLPF/calibration was much cleaner in the blacks and at higher ISOs, no? Is this new presence of additional noise in blacks the tradeoff for getting extra lattitude in highlights from the new OLPF/calibration?

Maybe this noise is something RED can address with some sort of firmware release? Dragons have had spotless, noise free imagery before, so clearly this is something they can have once again. Overall, not too worried, but looking forward to an seeing this resolved, for sure.

 

[Bob Gundu]

With both clips at:

2500 ISO
Kelvin: 2756
Tint: -14
Denoise: 6

The noise pattern for me is definitely favouring Dragon. Crank the ISO to 6400 and the MX is looking like chunks-ahoy. The Denoise function on the Dragon removes much of the purple noise.

 

[CJ Roy]

The noise pattern for me is definitely favouring Dragon. Crank the ISO to 6400 and the MX is looking like chunks-ahoy. The Denoise function on the Dragon removes much of the purple noise.

I'm getting the opposite results with the ISO set to 2000.

Most of it seems to be in the Red channel.

600x600 Video crop of Dragon
http://vids.axiomimages.com/proxy/public/A006_C001_060843h264.mov

600x600 Video crop of MX
http://vids.axiomimages.com/proxy/public/A001_C001_0609XXh264.mov