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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DRAGON vs EPIC MX Noise - NOT GOOD

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Hmmz i think this is pretty bad and red should chime in. My biggest selling point for dragon are more dynamic range, better colours and iso 2000 clean image. Shooting 250 is not a option for a lot of shoots. I fully expect to get a noise free image at iso 2000, that is what red said themselves, so really curious what their reaction to this is.
 
The real problem is at high shutters. I'm out traveling and can't post anything but someone should do a comparison of 60p 1/120 shutter or higher from a MX and Dragon and you'll really see problem at least i do with my camera. Never had an issue with 24p and 1/48 the issue really shows it's ugly face when you crank up the shutter even after you black shade to that shutter as well.
 
CJ Roy said:
I'm getting the opposite results with the ISO set to 2000.

dragon_mx_2000ISO.jpg


Most of it seems to be in the Red channel.
dragon_mx_2000ISO_redchannel.jpg


600x600 Video crop of Dragon
http://vids.axiomimages.com/proxy/public/A006_C001_060843h264.mov

600x600 Video crop of MX
http://vids.axiomimages.com/proxy/public/A001_C001_0609XXh264.mov
Click to expand...


Very interesting,
I'm watching this thread with interest.
I was about to get all my OLPFs changed... Put on hold now.
 
Incidentally I just want to mention that we looked at this footage on the latest release version of RCX with both a software debayer and a Rocket X debayer, viewing on a latest release iMac screen and via BMD ultra studio video out to a Flanders 24". Results in all combos were identical relating to noise.
 
Mark Toia said:
Very interesting,
I'm watching this thread with interest.
I was about to get all my OLPFs changed... Put on hold now.
Click to expand...

mark you may never notice since you shoot everything at ISO 250. :)

but yeah if I had the old Olpf I'd probably hold off too...just my opinion based on this one dragon camera body. Hoping to test 2 together on Wednesday.
 
Nick Morrison said:
Interesting, but by all accounts the old OLPF/calibration was much cleaner in the blacks and at higher ISOs, no? Is this new presence of additional noise in blacks the tradeoff for getting extra lattitude in highlights from the new OLPF/calibration?
Click to expand...

BINGO!

...perhaps.
 
Mark Toia said:
Very interesting,
I'm watching this thread with interest.
I was about to get all my OLPFs changed... Put on hold now.
Click to expand...

i thought you you already had yours upgraded?

Come to italy, we can shoot some side by sides. At the very least you'll eat well. :)
its a great time for fan tests too 38c today!

Battistella
 
Since the start I've been on

r1
r1 MX
epic x
dragon

i can handle highlights just fine. It's those clean blacks that I loved in the early tests that were posted.

An A or an S should not influence the color science!

Battistella
 
Eric Haase said:
Mark you may never notice since you shoot everything at ISO 250. :)
Click to expand...

Yes, but my understanding is that Mark doesn't process everything at ISO 250, so in essence he's not really
shooting at 250. Or, in other words, if you set your camera to 250, but then close down your lens by 2 stops
to protect your highlights, then you really are shooting at ISO 1000. (sorry for the off-topic).
 
I am hesitant to post yet another complaint here, as I don't like add to the negativity. RED cameras have been the tools that I chose, and with them, enabled me to capture exceptional shots , appreciative clients, a few awards, and most importantly a comfortable living for my family. For that I am very very positive. And to that, I reward RED, in a way, with my loyalty and open checkbook to take advantage of the latest and greatest. Be it a module, rocket card, or a sensor upgrade. Not all are perfect and some get used more than others. All my choices. I took the Dragon upgrade but am hesitant to call it that, yet. I can confirm that the noise in my recently upgraded Dragon is more pronounced than my MX. Pretty dramatic at times. I have kept my ISO at 250 and been careful with clipping which has kept the problem to a minimum and away from my clients eyes for now. But make no mistake it is a problem, the same as many of you have demonstrated here, especially so at higher shutter speeds (and yes I am up on the BS drill) and my world does not operate at ISO 250 all the time. The Dragon is lovely in highlights and sun filled locations which makes it all the more frustrating, to say the least. Shooting side by side with a another Epic MX shooter this past weekend at an event and the running joke was that he had the dawn patrol 4:30 AM shots as the Dragon couldn't hack the low light…. Truth in jest. I am hopeful this will be fixed as I am dependent on my RED.

Cheers

Taylor
 
Taylor,

I don't think there is anything negative in this thread, people re not getting nasty. People are just sharing their experiences. This is reduser at its best. We are sharing here to make things better, not to criticize.

It's in this spirit that I believe people ask red to respond.

And RED, being RED, are a customer focused company.

Secrets are dangerous.

This kind of open dialog is much healthier. I think RED would agree with that as well. We try to make amazing images, they try to make amazing sensors so we can do that, if there is indeed a problem, they probably want to see it fixed as much or more than we do.

Battistella
 
Mine is actually back at RED for some dust under the OLPF. RED was FAST to reply, and get it back in to a replaced OLPF and cleaning.

I just emailed them a link to this thread as well asking for them to verify about the noise issue while it's back on the work bench. I'll be honest this is incredibly concerning, but I know RED will make it right. At least I hope.
 
Luigi could you post a link after clicking on the post # in the post's top right corner? Page #s are random based on what people have their posts-per-page setting at. ;) For instance I only have 17 pages on that thread.
 
As someone still waiting for my upgrade and desperately looking for any shred of raw dragon footage, I am very happy about this thread! Everything I have seen has led me to the same conclusions that are very obvious here and now....
this is a major concern as the promise was clean 2000 ISO with 16.5 DR.....there are several post here now that make both those claims very debatable.....very....that is not being negative that is constructive criticism....which is obviously necessary...

I think an official statement from red would be great at this point.....
or a comparison showing that this is wrong and the early claims are in fact true....
 
CJ Roy said:
The noise difference between the two is fairly dramatic, especially in the underexposed areas. I'd recommend putting both clips in a RC-X timeline, view at Full / 100% and loop it during playback.

The Dragon has a lot more chromatic noise in it. The MX has noise, but it's not as bad.
Click to expand...

That's what I'm seeing. My Elk and Boat shots have noise in the shadows that I'm sure would not be there on the MX. I was told in the below thread "you are under exposing by a stop or two". That shouldn't be a deal breaker and the boat shot was for sure shot right under sky clip. There is noise and we more than likely will see a fix in the near future.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?117362-Dragon-vs-Canon-1Dx-Color-Matching
 
Zeb B said:
That's what I'm seeing. My Elk and Boat shots have noise in the shadows that I'm sure would not be there on the MX. I was told in the below thread "you are under exposing by a stop or two". That shouldn't be a deal breaker and the boat shot was for sure shot right under sky clip. There is noise and we more than likely will see a fix in the near future.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?117362-Dragon-vs-Canon-1Dx-Color-Matching
Click to expand...


Yes, if this is the case I think it's a question of getting the color science right.



Martin Stevens said:
Yes, but my understanding is that Mark doesn't process everything at ISO 250, so in essence he's not really
shooting at 250. Or, in other words, if you set your camera to 250, but then close down your lens by 2 stops
to protect your highlights, then you really are shooting at ISO 1000. (sorry for the off-topic).
Click to expand...

As I understand Mark shoots as we all should, he use the iso more or less as just as a " reference screen offset" and then he open up until the stoplights goes on and from there he dial back until no stoplights are lit... But yes, In these test shots we are in the complete other end of the spectrum.
 
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