Dragon vs Alexa 65

[David Mullen ASC]

Don't confuse the issue between sensor size and pixel resolution. ARRI has a 65mm sized sensor in the camera so they can call it a 65mm digital camera if they want to and that would be accurate, but it wouldn't be accurate to call the Dragon sensor "65mm" just because it is 6K as well, it would make the whole size labeling ridiculous, by your logic, you'd have to label all 4K cameras as "35mm" even if they had a 1/3" sensor, which would be nonsensical.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Yes the name and appeal has everything to do with the sensor size of this new camera, the pixel count is irrelevant. It could shoot 640 by 480 pixels but still would be a 65mm camera if its a 65mm sensor...Pixel count/size is completely irrelevant. JJ called Dragon a 65mm competitor based solely on resolving power/colors/dynamic range, it had nothing to do with the sensor size at all. a 65 is a 65 a s35 is an s35, a full frame is a full frame, a 16 is a 16, an apsc is an apsc, a 1/3 is a 1/3, a 2/3 is a 2/3 and its completely irrelevant how many pixels per inch fall on the size of the sensor (at least when it comes to sensor naming conventions)

 

[Harcharan Singh]

Comparison

Comparison

I think it is just a EYEWASH.....

Harcharan

 

[Humberto Rivera]

David I think we’re entering into a “pissing-contest” here, of course Arri call it’s camera whatever it whishes, I include their own chart here for reference. I’m not arguing, I think I was clear in saying that the “Red Epic Dragon Camera” was just that, nothing more. The sensor is the sensor, a frame from an actual 65 mm film frame is just that, there is no comparison; they’re two different things, just as the Dragon Sensor is the Dragon sensor. I just want to clarify that.

If I can quote myself; “So the 65 mm nomenclature is just marketing on the part of Arri. The Red Dragon is, and has been for a while a 65 Camera, but not that much marketing of that feature. Arri is trying to justify its four times the sensor size with its 65 mm description. Now we all know that Red will not stand still for Arri CATCHING UP to Red with 6K, without any other benefits, like the ones mentioned above is just more hype, that’s not to say they don’t have a great camera, they-do but at what expense with its 60 mm Image Circle limited frames per second, and the list goes on. But the Arri marketing department is really doing a “Good Job”, but that is not what films are shoot on. For example, with Red you can shoot film at one setting and stills at the same time with HDRx, now show me that Arri can do that when they’re limited to 24 or 25 fps. Two different “Business Models” and one cost more money than the other.”

Humberto Rivera

David Mullen ASC
Don't confuse the issue between sensor size and pixel resolution. ARRI has a 65mm sized sensor in the camera so they can call it a65mm digital camera if they want to and that would be accurate, but it wouldn't be accurate to call the Dragon sensor "65mm" just because it is 6K as well, it would make the whole size labeling ridiculous, by your logic, you'd have to label all 4K cameras as "35mm" even if they had a 1/3" sensor, which would be nonsensical.

 

[Nick Morrison]

The Red Dragon is, and has been for a while a 65 Camera...

Humberto, I think what David is getting it is...The Epic Dragon is NOT a 65mm camera. Ie 6K does not equal 65mm.

The Epic Dragon shoots 6K yes...but with a sensor size btw S35 and Full Frame.

The Arri 65 also shoots 6K, but with a gigantic sensor that's 3x the size of S35. That's what makes it "65mm". The shallow depth of field on this camera would make it look very, very different than a Dragon.

Regardless, RED looks like they may come out with their own 65mm camera, so there may indeed be a direct comparison...come NAB 2015.

best

 

[Michael Tiemann]

Humberto, I think what David is getting it is...The Epic Dragon is NOT a 65mm camera. Ie 6K does not equal 65mm.

The Epic Dragon shoots 6K yes...but with a sensor size btw S35 and Full Frame.

The Arri 65 also shoots 6K, but with a gigantic sensor that's 3x the size of S35. That's what makes it "65mm". The shallow depth of field on this camera would make it look very, very different than a Dragon.

Regardless, RED looks like they may come out with their own 65mm camera, so there may indeed be a direct comparison...come NAB 2015.

best

This ^

 

[Randall Weatherington]

I am amused that Arri referenced their 765 film camera.
When that camera was introduced, the biggest WOW feature on it was the little threading light that could be pulled out to illuminate the interior of the camera.

Arri says the 65 is available only for rental.
Years ago in a DP vs Panavision case, Panavision was ordered by the FTC to offer their equipment for sale as well as rental.
The DP wanted a Panaflex of his own while Panavision only wanted to rent.
The FTC ruled that anything offered for rent must also be offered for sale, so Panavision put ridiculous price tags on their equipment.
My guess is that Arri will follow the same practice as Panavision here in the USA.

 

[Brian Merlen]

No any OLPF !!!! It's pushed DR over 25 stops that you can see sensor pattern with a starting of blow out and saturated noise floor...even on a low 8bit computer monitor you can see that huge Dragon's Fire advantage over a kind of 5 perf 65 format sensor....!!!!
And this image from the Lab was chosen with a purpose just to trick a bit the competition...!!!!

What OLPF is it, really? Not the V2, correct?

 

[Phil Holland]

What David is saying is spot on. Dragon and Alexa 65 are wildly different formats. In these times many have beaten into silence the term format and in it's place something many people have an easier time digesting, resolution.

Which is why 1080p and 4K have become selling points and buzzwords. It's just what happens.

However, format (and specifically to me) format relevance to resolution are rather important.

We live in a time where cell phones and high end cameras shoot 4K. The difference? Pixel design, dynamic range, color, general features, quality, and format size. While cell phone 4K is a tremendous technological advancement, I don't want to shoot a movie with one for a litany of reasons.

Back to the Alexa 65. It's a very interesting camera and for a niche market of shooters at the moment. That's mainly due to cost of manufacturing, Arri's preference in this case for a rental only model, and the market itself not showing real adoption to such a large format without much supporting products such as lenses.

What is confusing to me is the confusing message that Arri has put forth regarding 4K not being necessary, though their own white papers and previous products stressed it's importance. Adding to the mix the confusing upscaling feature to 4K on the Amira and Alexa. And now a 6.5K 65mm format digital cinema camera.

Well the hard truth about that is that there are two different worlds, one exists in Marketing Strategy, which has penetrated many minds and clouded out the other world. Still to this day the same conversation about 2K vs. 4K is happening at IBC 2014. And not shockingly it's same voices, examples, and generally blind logic who are ignoring a major trend that is going on around them. I do expect a few of them to wake up as I've seen at least 3 "prominent internet visible figures" adopt 4K after bashing it's importance and the industry's desire for it. The other world is something a bit different. There's a reason we scanned S35 film at 4K then 6K then even 8K (though that wasn't exactly needed but the scanner tech became really important for other needs). Those reasons are what's pushing us into the future and why everybody in the neighborhood is making S35 4K cameras at the moment, minus Arri as they more or less missed the bus on this one when they canned Alexa4K in 2011. Though I bet they'll find a way to make a 4K camera because of the flack of the upscaling concept not going over very well in some circles.

Meanwhile, one thing that is notable to point out. Alarmingly limited lens options here and general camera feature set. At the moment we see up to 27 fps available with a 60 fps option in the future. Those are big deals for some shooters, but it doesn't make the camera not useful. The lenses themselves are all over the place and truly the only "right thing" for this camera at the moment isn't the lenses Arri is rehousing, it's the glass that Panavision has been working so very hard on. The Panavision 70 Series T2 Primes.

Where does that leave us as Red shooters? Well today we have Red Epic Dragon 6K. An interesting large format and high resolution capture system capable of producing some of the highest quality moving images shot. Bigger than S35, not as large as VistaVision nor 65mm. Still highly relevant in my mind in relationship to where 5K lands on the format.

One thing that Red has done right from the beginning is exploring larger format image sensors and also exploring high resolution capture. It seems like forgotten news now, but for a little while there weren't many 4K camera options outside of the Red One and Epic MX. Today's times are different. DCI and UHD standards are set. New screen and projection technology demands high resolution images that hit certain quality marks. That will ring truer in 2015 and through the future. 2017 however is a scarier year than what is happening at the moment.

Something I know needs to happen in relationship to all of this. Glass needs to get better overall and in the midst of that thought we also have a ton of lens options already.

 

[Björn Benckert]

What David is saying is spot on. Dragon and Alexa 65 are wildly different formats. In these times many have beaten into silence the term format and in it's place something many people have an easier time digesting, resolution.

Which is why 1080p and 4K have become selling points and buzzwords. It's just what happens.

However, format (and specifically to me) format relevance to resolution are rather important.

We live in a time where cell phones and high end cameras shoot 4K. The difference? Pixel design, dynamic range, color, general features, quality, and format size. While cell phone 4K is a tremendous technological advancement, I don't want to shoot a movie with one for a litany of reasons.

Back to the Alexa 65. It's a very interesting camera and for a niche market of shooters at the moment. That's mainly due to cost of manufacturing, Arri's preference in this case for a rental only model, and the market itself not showing real adoption to such a large format without much supporting products such as lenses.

What is confusing to me is the confusing message that Arri has put forth regarding 4K not being necessary, though their own white papers and previous products stressed it's importance. Adding to the mix the confusing upscaling feature to 4K on the Amira and Alexa. And now a 6.5K 65mm format digital cinema camera.

Well the hard truth about that is that there are two different worlds, one exists in Marketing Strategy, which has penetrated many minds and clouded out the other world. Still to this day the same conversation about 2K vs. 4K is happening at IBC 2014. And not shockingly it's same voices, examples, and generally blind logic who are ignoring a major trend that is going on around them. I do expect a few of them to wake up as I've seen at least 3 "prominent internet visible figures" adopt 4K after bashing it's importance and the industry's desire for it. The other world is something a bit different. There's a reason we scanned S35 film at 4K then 6K then even 8K (though that wasn't exactly needed but the scanner tech became really important for other needs). Those reasons are what's pushing us into the future and why everybody in the neighborhood is making S35 4K cameras at the moment, minus Arri as they more or less missed the bus on this one when they canned Alexa4K in 2011. Though I bet they'll find a way to make a 4K camera because of the flack of the upscaling concept not going over very well in some circles.

Meanwhile, one thing that is notable to point out. Alarmingly limited lens options here and general camera feature set. At the moment we see up to 27 fps available with a 60 fps option in the future. Those are big deals for some shooters, but it doesn't make the camera not useful. The lenses themselves are all over the place and truly the only "right thing" for this camera at the moment isn't the lenses Arri is rehousing, it's the glass that Panavision has been working so very hard on. The Panavision 70 Series T2 Primes.

Where does that leave us as Red shooters? Well today we have Red Epic Dragon 6K. An interesting large format and high resolution capture system capable of producing some of the highest quality moving images shot. Bigger than S35, not as large as VistaVision nor 65mm. Still highly relevant in my mind in relationship to where 5K lands on the format.

One thing that Red has done right from the beginning is exploring larger format image sensors and also exploring high resolution capture. It seems like forgotten news now, but for a little while there weren't many 4K camera options outside of the Red One and Epic MX. Today's times are different. DCI and UHD standards are set. New screen and projection technology demands high resolution images that hit certain quality marks. That will ring truer in 2015 and through the future. 2017 however is a scarier year than what is happening at the moment.

Something I know needs to happen in relationship to all of this. Glass needs to get better overall and in the midst of that thought we also have a ton of lens options already.

Hmm,
the mount on the alexa 65 looks quite "swappable" I think even if they say it only comes with their lenses the guys that got the funds to go ahead and rent that camera will also be able to make sure they can stick pretty much any lens they want on it.
If you think of it you could easily use it with lenses that covers FF image circle and get a very nice, quite high resolution image out of it even if you would not use the full sensor you would very much be able to downsample to get to UHD. So basically it can also work well as alexa true UHD camera. And to me (have only seen pictures) it looks like that XPL mount has quite a short flange distance, then if so, it would be quite easy to remount or make adapters for just about any midformat lenses.

Just thinking of it.....Anyone that knows the image circle for Master anamorphics? I'm guessing they do not cover... if they did they would probably market it with them. But I'm guessing atleast the longer once would cover quite a bit of that sensor... I start to drule just thinking of it, lol.

 

[jake blackstone]

What is confusing to me is the confusing message that Arri has put forth regarding 4K not being necessary, though their own white papers and previous products stressed it's importance. Adding to the mix the confusing upscaling feature to 4K on the Amira and Alexa. And now a 6.5K 65mm format digital cinema camera.

Phil you know very well, that there is no confusing message coming from ARRI on the question of resolution. ARRI was very clear on the subject of necessity of 4k resolution for the scanners. On the other hand, for a long time, they advocated 2K for camera acquisition. I can't speak for ARRI, but my understanding of their design and marketing philosophy is they would rather do the best 2k image possible rather than release a mediocre 4k camera. And that was the reason for abandoning the Alexa 4k in 2011. In Alexa 65 they feel their image standard is maintained. Again not speaking for ARRI, but my feeling concerning the decision to do rental only (BTW, that can quickly change with the right market conditions) is to find the way to stop or at least to slow down the race to the bottom we're seeing in the market place right now.

 

[Phil Holland]

Phil you know very well, that there is no confusing message coming from ARRI on the question of resolution. ARRI was very clear on the subject of necessity of 4k resolution for the scanners. On the other hand, for a long time, they advocated 2K for camera acquisition. I can't speak for ARRI, but my understanding of their design and marketing philosophy is they would rather do the best 2k image possible rather than release a mediocre 4k camera. And that was the reason for abandoning the Alexa 4k in 2011. In Alexa 65 they feel their image standard is maintained. Again not speaking for ARRI, but my feeling concerning the decision to do rental only (BTW, that can quickly change with the right market conditions) is to find the way to stop or at least to slow down the race to the bottom we're seeing in the market place right now.

That's what they publicly stated. There was a time when I was privy to some of those conversations.

 

[Bill Anderson]

"The race to the bottom" is a state of mind, and the protectionist mindset has only one way to go in the digital realm, and that is down baby, down. ( :

 

[jake blackstone]

"The race to the bottom" is a state of mind, and the protectionist mindset has only one way to go in the digital realm, and that is down baby, down. ( :

Tell this to the numerous manufacturers trying to survive and innovate in the face of inexpensive or free offerings, that they all are just imagining it. Once this race to the bottom reaches it's logical conclusion with no financial rewards left to innovate, enjoy your free-ish, "me too", devoid of any imagination and innovation crapware.

 

[Humberto Rivera]

Let me say, I said what I said, by that I mean that no matter the size of the sensor, 6K is 6K (take or give a few pixels), as to the other things like depth of field, size of sensor, and some cameras have more function than others, or whatever, I going into the night quietly because we have to wait for NAB 2015. And David I did not mean to disagree with you because I always respect your opinion, and it would take too long to explain what you mean and what I mean, yes the pixels on the Arri 65 are bigger, no question, without a doubt. At the end I think that we both would agree after a more complete discussion, but that’s for another time.

Humberto Rivera

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Happy to read that people start to realise that recently Arri somehow have a lack of real innovation just because it looks like that Alexa 65 is their lab project old several years.

They skipped 4K probably they couldn't make it in a way of 2K Alexa IQ.

And I call it a kind of German rebranding.

Read more about it here >>>>

 

[Bill Anderson]

Tell this to the numerous manufacturers trying to survive and innovate in the face of inexpensive or free offerings, that they all are just imagining it. Once this race to the bottom reaches it's logical conclusion with no financial rewards left to innovate, enjoy your free-ish, "me too", devoid of any imagination and innovation crapware.

It's not "a race to the bottom" - It's inevitable development towards an accessible AND superior product. I believe that fits RED's mantra. There is no way to stop the progress, even if it doesn't fit with your business model. Take a look at the stills world and tell me it suffers from a lack of quality because there are a billion point and shoots and cell phones - or because a million weekend photographers own the same gear as the best in the game. It's a cruel world for some, that's for sure.

 

[Dunkan Wolf]

Happy to read that people start to realise that recently Arri somehow have a lack of real innovation just because it looks like that Alexa 65 is their lab project old several years.

They skipped 4K probably they couldn't make it in a way of 2K Alexa IQ.

And I call it a kind of German rebranding.

Read more about it here >>>>

Who cares? Alexa has a fine sensor... and an even finer build quality. arguebly better than Dragon in many ways. Now it's just bigger and sharper. Many people were complaining about Alexa not being 4k... now they have 6k and people are still complaining, it's funny. : -)

Arri has taken the lead. Hopefully Red will catch up.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Who cares? Alexa has a fine sensor... and an even finer build quality. arguebly better than Dragon in many ways. Now it's just bigger and sharper. Many people were complaining about Alexa not being 4k... now they have 6k and people are still complaining, it's funny. : -)

Arri has taken the lead. Hopefully Red will catch up.

:lol::lol::lol:

heh heh heh.

 

[Matt W.]

Let me say, I said what I said, by that I mean that no matter the size of the sensor, 6K is 6K (take or give a few pixels), as to the other things like depth of field, size of sensor, and some cameras have more function than others, or whatever, I going into the night quietly because we have to wait for NAB 2015. And David I did not mean to disagree with you because I always respect your opinion, and it would take too long to explain what you mean and what I mean, yes the pixels on the Arri 65 are bigger, no question, without a doubt. At the end I think that we both would agree after a more complete discussion, but that’s for another time.

Humberto Rivera

I'm not an expert on these things, but my limited experience shooting 4x5, 6x7, and 135 film (and of course APS-C and FF digital after that) leads me to feel very differently. The MTF of the entire system is so much higher with a larger format because the lenses' MTFs are magnified alongside the area of the sensor. (Furthermore, I don't feel like the Alexa at 2.8K is much less sharp than the Epic MX at 5k, but this is a controversial opinion, I know. Of course the Epic has more resolution, but sharpness and resolution are very different things. The Dragon does seem to have a leg up alongside much, much better highlight and color rendition, bravo on this... footage looks like 6k Alexa footage.)

FF35 seems like the next logical choice for a high end pro owner/op system and with the amazing lenses coming out FF35mm absolutely competes with 6x7 film. But the limitation there was film and at normal stops (t5.6 and such and with the Primo 70s probably almost any stop) the larger sensor size makes a tremendous difference on digital. The myth that MF optics are poor is just that, a myth. At normal stops they are exceptionally sharp. Look at the IQ80 and Hasselblad backs and the images those produce next to even the D800:

http://static.timparkin.co.uk/static/tmp/cameratest-2/large.html

Even if the Alexa's 6k is no sharper than Red's 6k on the chip, the image making its way to the chip will be much higher contrast and have an entirely different feel. That said, a few Pentax lenses and a speed booster would surely be awfully close to as good and provide a similar look.

But I strongly disagree. The sensor is just one element. That said, I have much less experience than the professionals on this board; I am merely voicing mine.