Dragon vs Alexa 65

[Björn Benckert]

I'll prefer Dragon Carbon on my octacopter. Fly ready with Voigtländer 20mm lens it just weigh 2.2kg (5lbs). Flying with a Alexa65 with 24mm lens will be up to 14kg (30lbs), and make octacopter in the 50-70kg (110-150lbs) and not practical.

Well, the directors will say what they allways say which is: - "we need it for this shot..."

Even if it's not practical at all, it's out on a limb possible so then thats what they will ask for. So put together a droid that can take 20kg of arri camera and learn how fly it, then the big boys will call for sure.

 

[Christopher Probst]

The resolution, dynamic range and color rendition of this camera have me interested. The generally SLOW lenses, and lack of availability are its only downside...

The rehoused lenses Arri are offering, in particular, are a negative in that they feature a complete mixed bag of nuts for maximum iris. They are all over the map with stops from T2.2 all the way up to T4.8 (and completely randomly distributed at at)... Now with the shallower depth of field of a 60mm image circle, I can tolerate a deeper stop on the lens, and aside from extreme low-light work, this shouldn't be a problem... but trying to shoot a scene and pic an iris setting to appease all of these various lenses apertures is downright annoying.

I've head that current productions are using Panavision's new Primo70 lenses on the Alexa 65, and that's a much better option in that those lenses are a T2.0 all the way up to 20mm and then they jump to T2.8 for the 200mm and 250mm.

Given the right project, I'm definitely curious to try this... that is UNTILl Arri comes out with a 4K or greater Alexa for Super35 format lenses... It just remains to be seen what Arri will do with their photosite size/structure to deliver the same quality but at higher resolutions.

 

[Alain M]

There comes a time when Equipment is no longer important...I think Dragon time is a very good time where other equipment comparison is no longer important! Go out Shoot, learn, tweak, and learn more....I think the next Important time cycle IMHO is the 8k era...Until then, Dragon is plenty...so is my Scarlet MX!

 

[Dr. Sassi]

i think a comparison between Alexa65 and a "heh heh heh" RED, would be more relevant....

Exactly this.

Perhaps RED shares a new line of lenses again, which would make sense -- again. )

BTW, the ARRI 65 has 20-27fps, not really something that looks good compared to Dragon.

 

[JanneJansson]

Well, the directors will say what they allways say which is: - "we need it for this shot..."

Even if it's not practical at all, it's out on a limb possible so then thats what they will ask for. So put together a droid that can take 20kg of arri camera and learn how fly it, then the big boys will call for sure.

Hehe, ok! I'll build one

 

[Humberto Rivera]

Now that ”ARRI A3X CMOS Camera” CAN DO 6K, just like the “Epic Red Dragon Camera” we can drop the 2K is good enough BS, I really didn’t like the sound of that! Boy how they fought hard to keep it alive (when it was good for them), well eventually we all have to change our tunes. But what waits from the “Red Digital Cinema Company” now that “Arri” will catch up at NAB 2015 with an Image Circle of 59.87 mm (60 mm for those that like round numbers), and with Red Dragon with its smaller Image Circle with 34.5 mm can accept most lenses. The Arri 6K sensor seems to be about four times the size of the 6K Red Dragon Sensor but with the same 6K (more or less) Image Resolution. After all we do live in a 4K World, we just have to down rezz. Add to the Red Dragon slow-motion, higher dynamic range, HDRx, R3D REDCODE Files, and all kinds of other stuff, close but no cigar. I guess we’ll have to wait for NAB 2015.

Humberto Rivera

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Shoot a Dragon on a 50mm and an Alexa at 150mm and then compare the same image area. That's what I expect it looks like. Supersampled Alexa. Alexa arguably has the same dynamic range, we all know it has great color and now it'll have the resolution of Dragon. It's a good combination but I would be much happier if RED could just get the low-end of Dragon under control better. You'll get shallower depth of field out of an F1.3 lens than any of the Arri lenses which are mostly in the F/4+ range.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

DRAGON'S FIRE UPGRADE 2015

DRAGON'S FIRE UPGRADE 2015

After Alexa 65 release this week it's a pretty sure that RED DC will have a new sensor upgrade at NAB 2015

and maybe we can just call it DRAGON'S FIRE....

Anamorphic frame ratio ‎2.35, 2.39 or 2.40, FF35mm, VistaVision or whatever!!!!

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

With all respect.. Screw resolution. i would like the follow attention:

A redlink that accepts Vmount batts
A silent (or near silent) camera
More focus on noise free images at low light
Continued improvement on dynamic range and color science

This "Bigger is better" stuff is annoying. I love my Epic and I am sure Arri is doing a fine job, but these are the things that will help in the long run.

Jay

 

[Steve Sherrick]

O.K... so Arri has a new great camera... but do they have a great story?! '-)

I think their story actually is pretty great because it spans nearly 100 years and they were involved with some of the greatest filmmaking of all time. I also think RED's story is pretty great too because they challenged the industry as a whole to push harder, to give more people a voice.

What I'm trying to say is, almost every digital movie camera company has a good product that will tell the story very well. Good on Arri for finally getting in the pissin' contest. But I think they only want in the expensive portion of the contest by making their product so expensive that only the well-heeled productions will be able to afford the rental.

Arri has been involved for a long time. In terms of digital, the Alexa has done very well. They have been in the pissin' contest since 2010. The good thing for the industry is that there are choices. That's a good thing. Red needs Arri and Arri needs RED because it makes them both better in the end. If there are no reasons to push the limits, then maybe they won't.

But when RED unveils their entry, I believe and trust it will still be within the parameters of ownership that I work within. But never-mind that. That is some future thing, as far as I'm concerned. For now I have Dragons that I OWN... along with who knows how many thousands of other *Dragonians.

I think it's great that there are affordable options for owner operators. It's why I have a RED. But RED and Arri can have different business plans and approaches and still be successful. A lot of higher budget films with some of the top DPs in the world rent the gear. David Mullen doesn't buy cameras as far as I know. They rely on rental companies that can provide top notch support, including having backups of everything and custom made parts that make the cameras even better. To look at it only from an owner/operator perspective is a bit short sighted. That's not to say that I don't understand where you are coming from as to why you choose RED. I get that. I just think it would be jumping the gun to say that Arri's rental only approach is wrong. It makes it sound like we're all entitled to cameras fitting our budgets and our business plans.

* From the Urban Dictionary
Dragonian
Word used in the "Dragon Divine Chronicles" to describe humans born with the ability to transform into dragons. They are uniquely born with two souls... a human soul and a dragon soul, which in turn allows them their unique abilities and characteristics! They have superhuman abilities and "evolve" to adapt in heavy situations.

Dragonians "mature" over time and can't use their dragon powers till they experience an event called "Awakening" (this usually happens when they are under stress.) After that they can use their once-dormant dragon powers and transform![/QUOTE]

 

[Alan Maxwell]

Alexa fans get excited as they narrow the gap to RED Dragon.. (or do they?)

Alexa fans get excited as they narrow the gap to RED Dragon.. (or do they?)

Yesterday a D.P friend of mine Justin Brickle sent me this link regarding the Alexa 65mm camera system. Knowing full well we have a 6K CF Dragon.

http://nofilmschool.com/2014/09/arri-reveals-6k-65mm-cinema-camera-alexa-65

I take this is a great example of how Arri are desperately trying to close the perceived gap between their 2K system and RED's already existent capabilities.

I learnt that the Camera is not for sale but rental only. My guess is half a million if it were for sale. I wonder if it can run the 90-100 fps at 6k that the Dragon provides?

 

[Matt Ryan]

Yesterday a D.P friend of mine Justin Brickle sent me this link regarding the Alexa 65mm camera system. Knowing full well we have a 6K CF Dragon.

http://nofilmschool.com/2014/09/arri-reveals-6k-65mm-cinema-camera-alexa-65

I take this is a great example of how Arri are desperately trying to close the perceived gap between their 2K system and RED's already existent capabilities.

I learnt that the Camera is not for sale but rental only. My guess is half a million if it were for sale. I wonder if it can run the 90-100 fps at 6k that the Dragon provides?

27fps max at release, up to 60fps to come via later update.

There are already a couple threads on this new camera.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

This is another camera, for other situations. I would not say it directly competes with Dragon.

 

[Tom Gleeson]

The rehoused lenses Arri are offering, in particular, are a negative in that they feature a complete mixed bag of nuts for maximum iris. They are all over the map with stops from T2.2 all the way up to T4.8 (and completely randomly distributed at at)... Now with the shallower depth of field of a 60mm image circle, I can tolerate a deeper stop on the lens, and aside from extreme low-light work, this shouldn't be a problem... but trying to shoot a scene and pic an iris setting to appease all of these various lenses apertures is downright annoying.

I used the Primo 70 lenses with CF Dragons on a recent Feature and their consistent f2 stop and reasonable size and weight make them winners. Image quality on the Dragon was very good but would excel when the whole image circle is used. We had proprietary Panavision mounts on the Dragons so uncertain if they could be used with an adaptor to mount on to the new 65mm Alexa but if the rumours are true and this has been done then its a match made in heaven.

 

[Philipe Ratton]

O.K... so Arri has a new great camera... but do they have a great story?! '-)

What I'm trying to say is, almost every digital movie camera company has a good product that will tell the story very well. Good on Arri for finally getting in the pissin' contest. But I think they only want in the expensive portion of the contest by making their product so expensive that only the well-heeled productions will be able to afford the rental.

But when RED unveils their entry, I believe and trust it will still be within the parameters of ownership that I work within. But never-mind that. That is some future thing, as far as I'm concerned. For now I have Dragons that I OWN... along with who knows how many thousands of other *Dragonians.


* From the Urban Dictionary
Dragonian
Word used in the "Dragon Divine Chronicles" to describe humans born with the ability to transform into dragons. They are uniquely born with two souls... a human soul and a dragon soul, which in turn allows them their unique abilities and characteristics! They have superhuman abilities and "evolve" to adapt in heavy situations.

Dragonians "mature" over time and can't use their dragon powers till they experience an event called "Awakening" (this usually happens when they are under stress.) After that they can use their once-dormant dragon powers and transform!

Nothing personal against anyone but posts like this make reduser and redusers look very bad.

 

[Marc Wielage]

The amount of data this camera will generate will be insane.

Let's wait and see if Codex comes up with a way of recording Arriraw or at least a Log-C compressed file that will be reasonable. There's a lot of bright people at both Arri and Codex, and I think they're extremely aware of the importance of making the post path for Arri 65 as simple and direct as possible. But I don't think you can get around the need for a boat-load of hard drive space.

https://codexdigital.com/alexa_65

 

[Brian Merlen]

alexa and amira are both 4k now anyway... sort of lol...

 

[Julio Quintana]

I'm not sure why Arri would feel desperate about anything at this particular moment. The reasonable competitor to Dragon right now is still the original Alexa sensor lineup. I imagine that this 65mm version will produce phenomenal images, comparable to three Dragon sensors stitched together. But Robert is right, Arri 65 and Epic Dragon are so different in terms of weight, file size, frame rate, lens options, etc., that they should never really be competing directly for the same application.

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

You DID see the sensor size comparison, right?

 

[Joe Taylor]

Ok, at the risk of being ostracized, I'm still going to plead ignorant because I simply don't get what the big deal is. If you own or rent a Dragon which has similar resolution, what is otherwise to gain from having a 65mm sensor? You're working with a limited selections of lenses that are inherently bigger and slower with legitimate issues concerning shallow DOF. If it were 8k with existing 8K projection I'd fall platonically in love with the Alexa65. For now I just don't get it. Help me out here but please play nice.