Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon Upgrade Predictions for Scarlet-X

Björn Benckert said:
Remember this,
When the epics get upgraded there will be a lot of old epic boards... I think scarlet users will be able to have their cameras gutted and replaced with epic interior... for a good price.
Click to expand...

Well, at first sounds interesting, but not really feasible me thinks.
One thing for Scarlet is to get EPIC reject boards from pre-production testing and completely different story is to receive EPIC's used boards (1 year old).
What would be the warranty period? Again one year - then I should really be concerned and go for the extended warranty. I would be paying cca. 10.000$ for second hand electronics. Sounds like trouble.
 
If it costs even close to $9000 than the whole 'obsolesce obsolete' thing doesn't hold any weight with Scarlet. With a $35G Epic it does (as $6000 is roughly only 1/6th the cost of an entirely new camera), but for Scarlet, which costs $9700 for a complete brain to begin with, you're essentially paying twice for only one camera. If that's the case, it'd be more cost effective to just buy a Dragon equipped Scarlet for whatever it ends up costing (unless, they actually doubled the price of the brain to 18,700, which would be ridiculous as it only emphasizes the exact same problem with sensor upgrades.)

The sensor upgrades are not worthwhile if the the cost of an entire camera is pretty much the same as the cost of just the upgrade. I mean, even at $6000, you're only saving a 1/3rd of the entire Scarlet brain price, but you end up with only one camera. How is that so much better than having to get a second camera that comes with Dragon (at least then you'd access to some sweet A/B-cam loving)?
 
Demetri Zuev said:
What would be reasonable and logical is to multiply all current framerates by two, making it

12fps@6K
24fps@5K
48fps@4K
96fps@3K
120fps@2K
240fps@720p

Maybe also add a lower compression settings for higher res, allowing to shoot 5K at something like 3:1.

Plus all the benefits of the sensor that are the same on any camera — higher DR, better low light etc.

Now, saying all that doesn't mean that I don't want Scarlet to be a 6K 120fps beast of a camera, I'm just trying to be realistic.

I really hope that the upgrade cost for Scarlet won't exceed 10K.
Click to expand...

I think your guestimates are probably pretty close...the best guess so far!
 
Mike P. said:
If it costs even close to $9000 than the whole 'obsolesce obsolete' thing doesn't hold any weight with Scarlet. With a $35G Epic it does (as $6000 is roughly only 1/6th the cost of an entirely new camera), but for Scarlet, which costs $9700 for a complete brain to begin with, you're essentially paying twice for only one camera. If that's the case, it'd be more cost effective to just buy a Dragon equipped Scarlet for whatever it ends up costing (unless, they actually doubled the price of the brain to 18,700, which would be ridiculous as it only emphasizes the exact same problem with sensor upgrades.)

The sensor upgrades are not worthwhile if the the cost of an entire camera is pretty much the same as the cost of just the upgrade. I mean, even at $6000, you're only saving a 1/3rd of the entire Scarlet brain price, but you end up with only one camera. How is that so much better than having to get a second camera that comes with Dragon (at least then you'd access to some sweet A/B-cam loving)?
Click to expand...

A truly functional Scarlet is close to $15k+, I think sub 10k "brain only" prices are confusing/misleading. So spending $8-9k on the upgrade is a little over 50% of the camera cost. Not chump change, but certainly better than forking out a whole other $20-30k for a new camera, right?

And for $9k extra you'll have a camera that destroys the Alexa and everything else on the market.

Lets look at how Canon would do it. The C300 is $16k. The "upgraded" version 6 months later is the C500, which is $30k. As the C300 has no upgrade path, if you then bought the C500 "to keep up", you will have spent $45,000 total!!!

The $16k Scarlet plus $9k upgrade puts you at $25k. A $20k savings!

Technology and cameras are evolving at lightning speed. The fact that RED lets you upgrade at all I think is pretty ridiculous.
 
Well it depends on which kind of upgrade is the Scarlet's dragon upgrade, so different to the Epic's one. I mean on the Epic side we all know the specs of that upgrade, in the meantime nothing we know about the Scarlet's upgrade specs. I'm sure I'll upgrade if
1 - the new sensor take me in the 5K world at least at 24
2 - higher frame rates in the 4k and below territory (I'd like very much 120 at 2K but I'd like too 50/60 at 4K) with HDRx at 24/25 fps
3 - a better light sensibility, higher ISO native - but nevermind about 6K, I can leave it to the EPIC.
4 - A little minus of everything I wrote but the 15+ DR (at least at 4K)
Others could think they will not upgrade if the Dragon doesn't bring to them higher frame rates as the fs700 has (only at 1080, at this moment...) We'll see...
One thing for sure the upgrade chance is an opportunity only RED owners have. And I'm very proud of it.
Btw I don't think the sensor upgrade of our beloved Scarlet will happen in 1 year - I aspect it for the end of 2013... first the Epic at the end of 2012 (Jim said this) and after the Scarlet. I hope not but...
 
Mike is right, it doesnt matter if a full functional Scarlet is 15k. If you gonna pay 9k you better end up with two brains by buying a dragon scarlet, simple math.
Unless of course, and most probably, scarlet dragon, brain only, is gonna cost around 15k.
 
I will buy you all a beer if the Scarlet with Dragon sensor is less than $12k for the brain only. Given that I paid $7550 for my Scarlet brain, a theoretical $9k upgrade means I got to use (and make money with) my Scarlet for 12+ months AND will be one of the first on the block with a Dragonized scarlet for a less than $5k premium. If I can't justify that, I'm in the wrong business.
 
IMO I think RED will have to be a little more aggressive with the Scarlet upgrade simply because of the new pressure on the low end. The Epic is top of the line. Epic buyers likely aren't as price sensitive. But considering what BM announced today, I suspect, and hope that the Scarlet gets 6k 24fps and 5k 48fps etc for maybe $6500.

Just a guess.
 
As the sensor specs are as of yet not finalize and we don't exactly how much hardware needs to be swapped out I'm expecting $6500-$8000. $9k is risky business, but it really depends on what the actual specs are for the Scarlet owners and how close that gets us to what Epic can do today.
 
It's frustrating hearing the disappointment about RED's pricing. This is how much it costs to use bleeding-edge tools. If you are looking for the BEST, MOST COST EFFECTIVE tools that are 4k capable RIGHT NOW, not "later this year", and not using a pricey, bulky external recorder, then RED is THE option for you.

If you do not want 4k acquisition, then you don't need to spend the $15K to do so. You could always buy a camera from Brand A, Brand B, Brand C, or Brand S. But compare what you're getting per dollar, factor in the upgrades that are available, and RED will ALWAYS come out on top.

I have no doubts in my mind that Scarlet will probably cost $17K+, Epic will cost $47K+ after Dragon becomes standard. RED will always give back to the early adopters.

When you look at it this way, if you got an MX Scarlet for $9750, and were satisfied with the MX sensor (which we all should, or we wouldn't be using these cameras every day in the first place) and didn't want to utilize the Dragon upgrade offer, then you've basically gotten a 4K camera for a STEAL. Even if you bought after Jan 1st, you'll still get a sweetheart deal. Jumping onto the RED bandwagon early will always pay off in the end. Obsolescence obsolete. When you buy a car, do they give you the chance to upgrade your engine for 1/6 the cost? Never! When you buy a Mac or a PC, do they offer the chance to upgrade to the latest chips at a fraction of the price? Nada! The Dragon upgrade isn't too expensive, rather, the Scarlet body is relatively cheap.

What Jarred and Jim are doing for us is truly revolutionary for a company, and I feel we should appreciate a bit more what these guys are doing for us, and the cinema industry in general. Thank you RED for your generosity. I don't regret my investment at all.

</rant>

-Alexander
 
Alexander

I agree with you 100%.

Well I guess 99.99%. I'm only saying that cutting edge technology is getting cheaper. I too applaud RED for changing the game. Now the Highest end Sony is 1/3 of what it would have cost because of RED. That's awesome.

BUT I would hope that in the furure even RED cameras will get both much better and also eventually less expensive too! A year from now perhaps a Dragon Scarlet might cost $13k vs $17k?

Maybe maybe not.

But the arrival of a 12bit RAW camera for $3k has to help improve our chances no?

That's my only point.
 
Troy Bakewell said:
But the arrival of a 12bit RAW camera for $3k has to help improve our chances no?
Click to expand...

Absolutely. But something tells me that RED has more tricks up their sleeves. And i'm sure the guys are going to think for a really long time on how to strategically offer the best value to all RED owners. I'd be extremely surprised if a Scarlet a year from now includes Dragon and costs the same as the current Scarlet. I guess time will tell. "Everything is subject to change" :wink5:
 
Alexander Thomson said:
I When you buy a car, do they give you the chance to upgrade your engine for 1/6 the cost? Never! When you buy a Mac or a PC, do they offer the chance to upgrade to the latest chips at a fraction of the price? Nada! The Dragon upgrade isn't too expensive, rather, the Scarlet body is relatively cheap.
Click to expand...

Those are really bad examples - with a car, you can replace just the engine with a far better one for (depending on the base price of the entire car and the engine you're replacing it with) 1/10th the cost easy... Nothing dictates that you have to go through the original manufacturer to get a better engine, especially if you're a backyard mechanic. With a PC/Mac it's the same thing; you can swap out any number of parts with up-to-date replacements for 1/10th the cost of the entire system as well... RAM, video card, CPU, all of that is very easily and cheaply replaceable...

My concern, and what I've been saying for a while is, if cameras like the BlackMagic are $3k for 2.5k/24p, and it's successor/BM2 ends up being $6k for 5k/24p next summer (I'm exaggerating to prove my point), that would be $9k for two RAW cameras that make a nice A-B cam team... On the flip side, if Scarlet is $10k for 4k/24p, plus an additional $6k for 6k/24p ala dragon next summer, it ends up being more $$ and you end up with only one camera. Now granted I'm exaggerating, but Dragon for Scarlet is still a year away (longer with evaluation, swap out, and shipping line ups) and who knows what upstarts like Digital Bolex or BM (or even the big dogs) are going to announce in that time and for what price...

It's the same old story: technology is exponential, and now that the floodgate is opening, prices are going to plummet. Is 5k (or even 6k) RAW worth 6x the cost of 4k RAW? If you have wads of cash, definitely... For independent filmmakers in the sub-$20k category? Probably not... And as the prices clamp down, the upgrade options are going to be less financially sound, no matter how it's marketed. Better example, if a RED1mx could be had readily today for $5000 (which, to me, is its relative value with Scarlet being $10k, and BM 2.5k being $3k), I think most independents would think twice before grabbing a Scarlet... And again, this is only a problem in this price bracket (it's not the same with Epic obviously.)
 
personally i want mine to breathe fire and kidnap pretty princess's....can i get the firmware for that?
 
Alexander Thomson said:
When you buy a car, do they give you the chance to upgrade your engine for 1/6 the cost? Never! When you buy a Mac or a PC, do they offer the chance to upgrade to the latest chips at a fraction of the price? Nada! The Dragon upgrade isn't too expensive, rather, the Scarlet body is relatively cheap.
Click to expand...

Mike P. said:
Those are really bad examples - with a car, you can replace just the engine with a far better one for (depending on the base price of the entire car and the engine you're replacing it with) 1/10th the cost easy... Nothing dictates that you have to go through the original manufacturer to get a better engine, especially if you're a backyard mechanic. With a PC/Mac it's the same thing; you can swap out any number of parts with up-to-date replacements for 1/10th the cost of the entire system as well... RAM, video card, CPU, all of that is very easily and cheaply replaceable...
Click to expand...

Touché.

Yet the idea of getting upgraded components for a fraction of the cost of the entire system is unheard of in the cinema industry, I guess that's what I was trying to convey.
 
Brian Merlen said:
personally i want mine to breathe fire and kidnap pretty princess's....can i get the firmware for that?
Click to expand...

I was hoping for a hot plate that bolts to a swat rail above the heat chamber so I can cook up some crew food while onlocation... but fire-breathing technology works pretty well too.
 
Trevor Meeks said:
My FPS predictions are in line with yours, aside from the fact that I hope we'll see 30fps 5K, but it's already been said that the SCARLET upgrade will be more than the EPIC, due to the fact that they need to replace more internal boards. So I'm guessing $7,000-$8,000 for the Scarlet upgrade.
Click to expand...

Ooooh yeah. I completely forgot about that part. Well fuck...

Well then in that case whenever Scarlet will be upgraded it will be around the same price of the original Red One. I think it was what, $17,000 for the body starting off? So I'm going with your guesstimate. Sounds about right.

If ScarletUser threw a hissy fit when RED released a $10,000 camera, just wait until they double it.
 
Wish:
25 fps at 5K
and DR as proposed (15 stops)
at 2500 USD.

...leave HDRx to the Epic crowd. Softly clipped highlights will soon be the new black!

And nothing else. I don't care about the lower K's and high framerates. Because slowmotion video is going down the same drain as timelapses, cinesliders and hipster-colorgrades in the near future.

After this, I will never wish for anything ever again in my life, now that the PRO IO is coming.

Prediction:
25 FPS at 5K
and framerate boosts at lower K's
price 9000 USD
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top