Dragon??? So after nearly 10months what do we think? NATIVE 2000ASA no 18stops no ..

[Kemalettin Sert]

Sweet spot is "whatever". I like for clean shooting ISO 250-500. A bit of texture ISO 640-1280. Pretty much how I've been working.





It's a check box. No slider, it's an on or off sort of thing. Selective noise reduction is going to remove captured detail, which is becoming a bigger and bigger deal when dealing with a 4K finish for theater or screen display. As for a render hit, nothing truly noticeable. You guys can test that out for yourselves, but it's not screwing around with my render times on any of my boxes.

dont know this asked before.Any difference from noise reduction algorithms? Did you test this against NR on Resolve etc.? Like you stated above is it just Red/Blue channel NR with software?

 

[jacob.schwarz]

The detail improvement and no more red speck. Sold. These are great side my sides.

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

Thanks Phil!

DEB is just on/off? Wow. I thought for sure it was a slider or something similar. At a minimum perhaps an opacity filter with the on/off switch.

 

[Phil Holland]

dont know this asked before.Any difference from noise reduction algorithms? Did you test this against NR on Resolve etc.? Like you stated above is it just Red/Blue channel NR with software?

That's not what's going on. It's not simply noise reduction on the R and B channels. It's a new adaptive demosiacing algorithm optimized for Dragon. It's removing some noise and adding detail where there previously wasn't any. I would classify this as a color science enhancement more than anything.

Noise reduction in 3rd party applications and plugins are all destructive to fine details, so DEB is netting you better results. Though you can certainly go ahead and do some NR if you feel it's necessary if you are reaching into the noise floor or exploring higher ISOs. Red doesn't do that in camera because they are more about pure resolved detail than anything.

 

[Mike P.]

If that's the case, why not force-enable it and just say its a new colour science tweak? It's kind of like the opposite of DRX (which actually prematurely clips/crushes all colour channels down to the lowest common denominator to make clipping=white even though red and blue tend not to clip as early as green). Certainly, if there's no performance hit than that implies it's a debayer/colour science tweak (and not simple noise reduction).

Still, makes me think MEB for MX could do the same thing... make MX at 1600ISO as clean as 800ISO, giving an "additional" stop of highlight retention at no cost to detail/noise.

 

[Stacey Spears]

Phil, I think you need some lotion for your hands!

Nice R, G, and B example w/ and w/o DEB. Thank you for sharing. How about another pair of each with ADD enabled? Curious to see how that impacts w/ and w/o DEB. In your copious free time of course.

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

This is what an endless, selfless quest to help fellow RED users looks like.

Yes, indeed.

Thanks Phil for all you do!

 

[Bruce Allen]

Thank you Phil for doing those tests. Sadly, I prefer the one without DEB because DEB appears to destroy the red color in the veins in the eye.

...unless you have grey veins in your eye?

Look closely and you'll see it.

It seems to be introducing crosstalk - by stealing data from the other channels, it's making incorrect guesses. It's not magically finding new detail... it's grabbing it in various forms from the other channels.

I will very likely continue my existing policy of Neat Video for many shots.

I would say that it is a serious mischaracterization to suggest that DEB only "adds detail" and 3rd party filters "destroy detail" - for example, Neat Video through temporal analysis can definitely "discover" detail... and DEB I think can similarly destroy valuable color info. But I think you know that too, right? So why not just say it like it is? We can agree that a little richness can be lost, right?

DEB:

No DEB:

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Elsie N]

Just going to briefly tiptoe in here to say that when I said "most real DPs aren't on REDUser" I didn't mean that if you post to REDUser you aren't a real DP, just that you're in the minority. Which shouldn't be surprising since for every David Mullen there are 100 DPs shooting blockbusters who have never posted. And for every other working DP shooting everything else there are another 1,000 who never have written a post.

There are only 5,000 active users on REDUser you're not even seeing every RED owner on these forums.

As to Dragon I would say it's as bad as its detractors say it is and it's as good as its supporters have shown it to be.

Gavin, I probably owe you an apology for using a dated post of yours from another thread to make my point.

But personally, I thought you were right on target if you were thinking of the small number of high profile DPs out there. I suspect they have their opinions and while they may discuss them with fellow workers, have no interest in debating their opinions on a public forum.

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think RED will give us "MEB" (DEB version for MX). In part, to reward Dragon adopters, but also to clearly separate Dragon from MX. And considering its just the beginning, like all RED cameras thus far, things will drastically improve. Here's to good times ahead!

 

[Elsie N]

Thank you Phil for doing those tests. Sadly, I prefer the one without DEB because DEB appears to destroy the red color in the veins in the eye.

...unless you have grey veins in your eye?

Look closely and you'll see it.

It seems to be introducing crosstalk - by stealing data from the other channels, it's making incorrect guesses. It's not magically finding new detail... it's grabbing it in various forms from the other channels.

I will very likely continue my existing policy of Neat Video for many shots.

I would say that it is a serious mischaracterization to suggest that DEB only "adds detail" and 3rd party filters "destroy detail" - for example, Neat Video through temporal analysis can definitely "discover" detail... and DEB I think can similarly destroy valuable color info. But I think you know that too, right? So why not just say it like it is? We can agree that a little richness can be lost, right?

DEB:

No DEB:

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

I gotta get my eyes checked. (No pun intended '-)


To clarify, in the no DEB shot I'm seeing RED sparkies in the black pupil. In the DEB shot, I see a clear pupil. I thought that was the goal. And by the way, I like the no DEB shot too.

 

[Brian Boyer]

i have no clue how being critical of a product I own can come back to bite me in the ass....

I wasn't going to single anyone out but...

1) this comes as no surprise because you are one of the worst offenders. I imagine you know this, which is why you felt compelled to respond.

2) You don't have a Dragon. You're being hypercritical of a product you don't own and you've made it clear you plan to stick with MX.

For years, people on this forum have (rightfully) commented about how skittish clients and producers can be. I wish I had a dime for every time I've read, "You try telling a client…"

If people are afraid that trying to explain to clients they may require a few more lights on a production when using the OLPF V2 Dragon for some scenes is enough to make them think twice about using Dragon, I think people incessantly ranting from the mountaintop, at the top of their lungs, in every thread they can find for weeks on end about how bad Dragon is would be worse.

Some users have reported MX is renting better than Dragon in their markets because people are wary of Dragon's issues. If RED gets most this stuff ironed out over the next few months, it may be too little, too late for Dragon owners whose potential clients got spooked by the "end of days" type rhetoric surrounding it.

There's a point of diminishing returns, beyond which the harping and the handwringing can do more harm than good.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Sounds like everybody can check it out tomorrow, but I don't mind showing and explaining what it can do. But you'll need to see it under a lot of conditions to get the full breath of what it's all about.

DEB is an adaptive debayer algorithm.

A small list of things you'll genrally notice:

- No more "red specks" in the shadows through midtones
- Generally speaking a slightly more detailed RGB image.
- Slightly better Color Temperature performance.
- Cleaner and more detailed Red and Blue Color Channels.
- Slightly "truer" color image-wide and down into the noise floor.
- A very slight drop in image noise.
- No "hit" on processing time.

So with that in mind you can image the variety of shooting situations I'd have to show to show you "everything". However, you can see a lot in any image as everything benefits from it.

A good noise filter should remove most noise and restore nearer to the authentic image. You can get rid of a lot of olpf artifacts and lens issues with the right algorithms in software. The one thing very difficult to get rid of is clipping at top or bottom end, once its gone its gone. It will be hard to have a situation where these clipped areas are exposed to right amount of light in a scene to briefly bring out the lost detail for capture, like the actor shifting their head but it can be done otherwise. So while you can apply these techniques to images from older Red Cameras. the Dragon has more to start with. On the technical side of the industry, not the wishful thinking/marketing hype, we know that we can produce Red like images in a few years from a $500 cameras, they are just going to loose out in some situations (low light most likely).

I and others worked on image correction techniques going over the decades into all these areas. Even cheap lenses can be corrected, so a $500 camera including single or maybe two lens yielding Dragon quality in 4kp48/50/60.

As usual, I'm tooting technologies and realities horn here.

 

[charles lim yi yong]

i blame RED on this one.People want more because they know RED Digital Cinema listening them.its not ARRI/SONY Last time i had chat with ASC member he was so tired of seeing ARRI in ASC clubhouse all the time.They were like living in there.Do you think Arri gives a shit about problems reported on message boards?
Even there is no reply from Jarred or Jannard on this thread believe me they are reading all these negative and positive comments about Dragon.Thats why i love RED...

Arri got Roger Deakin's wonderful forum
http://www.rogerdeakins.com/forum2/

 

[Nick Fury]

I gotta get my eyes checked. (No pun intended '-)


To clarify, in the no DEB shot I'm seeing RED sparkies in the black iris. In the DEB shot, I see a clear iris. I thought that was the goal. And by the way, I like the no DEB shot too.

Just to get the anatomical markers in concert ( note right and left refer to the patient's (stage) anatomic position):

Black in the above center of eye is the pupil ( reflection, appearing white, on my monitor is seen on the right side of the pupil).
Green-blue, on my monitor, around the pupil is the Iris.
Whitish area around the Iris is the Sclera.
Red areas on the left , lower side of the sclera, on my monitor (non-DEB) are blood vessels-likely arteriolar side of circulation.

Thank you very much

Fury

 

[Elsie N]

Just to get the anatomical markers in concert ( note right and left refer to the patient's (stage) anatomic position):

Black in the above center of eye is the pupil ( reflection, appearing white, on my monitor is seen on the right side of the pupil).
Green-blue, on my monitor, around the pupil is the Iris.
Whitish area around the Iris is the Sclera.
Red areas on the left , lower side of the sclera, on my monitor (non-DEB) are blood vessels-likely arteriolar side of circulation.

Thank you very much

Fury

Heh, heh... thanks Nick. corrected my mistake. Yes I do see the change in the blood vessels Bruce spoke of now, but they look like blue vessels in both cases to me. But I'm looking at this on a cheap Dell monitor and I guess I was more interested in the red sparkies in the PUPIL. Guess it just goes to show we'll never get a perfect crop. And like Bruce, I'm a fan of Neat Video when needed.

 

[Bohdan Klos]

Thank you Phil for doing those tests. Sadly, I prefer the one without DEB because DEB appears to destroy the red color in the veins in the eye.

...unless you have grey veins in your eye?

Look closely and you'll see it.

It seems to be introducing crosstalk - by stealing data from the other channels, it's making incorrect guesses. It's not magically finding new detail... it's grabbing it in various forms from the other channels.

I will very likely continue my existing policy of Neat Video for many shots.

I would say that it is a serious mischaracterization to suggest that DEB only "adds detail" and 3rd party filters "destroy detail" - for example, Neat Video through temporal analysis can definitely "discover" detail... and DEB I think can similarly destroy valuable color info. But I think you know that too, right? So why not just say it like it is? We can agree that a little richness can be lost, right?

DEB:

No DEB:

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

I think this is a bad example - the red sparkle is being misconstrued as red veins (extra detail) so I do prefer the DEB version. Though I prefer all my footage to have post performed on it.

 

[Stacey Spears]

If that's the case, why not force-enable it and just say its a new colour science tweak?

Here is what Jarred said when previously asked.

...Since its more open there is the SDK support and Rocket support and everything else that goes with it so there needs to be an on off switch until it works with everything... and until there has been hundreds of more hours of testing to make sure there is no negative side effect that pops up where you would want to turn it off.

 

[Nick Fury]

I think this is a bad example - the red sparkle is being misconstrued as red veins (extra detail) so I do prefer the DEB version. Though I prefer all my footage to have post performed on it.

Hi Bhodan,

Whilst there may well be a contribution to, what I interpret as typical, scleral blood vessels, from camera artifact, the apparent change in hue, from red to gray, on my monitor, of those vessels, is significant. Visine has a competitor, IMHO. Whether one would desire this apparent DEB change in hue, is an artistic choice, of course.

Thank you very much

Fury

 

[Mike P.]

Thanks Spears!