Dragon??? So after nearly 10months what do we think? NATIVE 2000ASA no 18stops no ..

[Jarred Land]

Phil, with all due respect i have a graph somewhere that illistrated 20stops actually, .

You have a picture of a step chart that has the 21 steps of the chart labeled on it because we had to use a special chart since the normal dynamic range charts all stop at 15 stops. When you show a step chart, you show the whole cart to see how much of that is usable. Some people looked at that chart and drew their own wrong conclusions. Dragon can capture anywhere between 16-18 stops depending who you ask and how they measure, and in our spec we listed 16.5 on our website and in our tech specs before anyone paid for the Dragon or Dragon upgrade.

I want to make this clear... Some of the best images that have ever been shot on any camera have been with the Dragon. Lots of great stuff is starting to come out now, the images speak for themselves. The Dragon is the best sensor we have ever made.. for every measurable reason.

Before we released the new OLPF, nobody ever complained about "noise" from a Dragon. People complained about the flares and the skin tones and wanted more highlight retention. So for those people we fixed it, at the expense of the bottom end because the flares and skin tones were a result of letting in "bad" parts of the light spectrum to the sensor.

That " bad " light had an advantage because even though it was bad light, it was light and it lifted things up. Again... the MX did the same thing.. and that never bothered some people, but bothered others... Skin-tones have been the biggest complaint we used to receive since we started. The really talented guys will pick better color science, better skintones, and an image with a higher IQ over one that is a lesser image any day.

But there are some people that want to shoot in the dark... and shoot at high ISOs etc.. so we made it an option. It's just an option. If you want the best camera in low light, you can use the old OLPF. If you want the best camera for everything else.. use the new OLPF. We will have something in the middle.. as well as other options as the swappable OLPF comes along.

I don't really get the insanity that people are making around this.. and the bizarre complaints by people that don't even have a Dragon or have never shot a Dragon. Complaining about noise on the new OLPF is like buying a sports car with large rims and low profile tires and loving how handling is so much better but then complaining about the decreased comfort.

Like I said... It's an option.. low noise.. choose the old OLPF. Better everything else.. choose the new OLPF.

If you don't like RED... or don't like what we make, getting all hot and bothered over this whole thing is just a waste of time.. Go buy something else. Life is short. I am not getting alot complaints from the people I consider the most talented... those guys are the ones that tell us " can you fix skin tones ? " or " can you fix this " and we do. And the images that they go out and make are stunning.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

My priority would also be good skin tones, period. Noise is secondary.

That said, I think we all also just want RED cameras to be the ABSOLUTE best camera for both low noise and good skin tones among many other things. All at the same time. If possible, that'd be great. If not, that's alright for now. Speaking for myself atleast, I'd love for RED to really continue to find innovative ways to deliver the impossible. This is why I'm sending in my camera for a Dragon upgrade! It may not be perfect today, but I'm along for the ride...

 

[Bob Gundu]

My camera is heading to RED headquarters this week for the upgrade!

 

[Jarred Land]

My priority would also be good skin tones, period. Noise is secondary.

That said, I think we all also just want RED cameras to be the ABSOLUTE best camera for both low noise and good skin tones among many other things. All at the same time. If possible, that'd be great. If not, that's alright for now. Speaking for myself atleast, I'd love for RED to really continue to find innovative ways to deliver the impossible. This is why I'm sending in my camera for a Dragon upgrade! It may not be perfect today, but I'm along for the ride...

Thanks Nikhil. We will never make a perfect camera.. but we will continue to get as close as we can.

I acknowledge your request for somewhere in the middle as many have requested.. better skintones than the old OLPF and less noise than the new OLPF and its on our short-list for OLPF options. Its important to have the best of both sides like we have now.. but sometimes making something for the middle makes perfect sense.

 

[Sergio Perez]

Thanks Nikhil. We will never make a perfect camera.. but we will continue to get as close as we can.

I acknowledge your request for somewhere in the middle as many have requested.. better skintones than the old OLPF and less noise than the new OLPF and its on our short-list for OLPF options. Its important to have the best of both sides like we have now.. but sometimes making something for the middle makes perfect sense.

That would satisfy 99.9% of us. Jarred. Something just better than MX in all parameters.Doesn't need to be stellar in Dynamic Range or have the best colours. Just better than MX in all these aspects, including noise, no need to go as far as the OLD OLPF, but just a bit better than MX, without some of the current artefacts of the old OLPF. Confident as always you guys will make it happen. I am sending my money next week and am ordering possibly the OLD OLPF since I have to have a good low light performer for November, but with full confidence that this middle ground OLPF will be the one never leaving my sensor!

 

[Jarred Land]

and am ordering possibly the OLD OLPF since I have to have a good low light performer for November, but with full confidence that this middle ground OLPF will be the one never leaving my sensor!

sounds good to me

 

[Bohdan Klos]

Thanks Nikhil. We will never make a perfect camera.. but we will continue to get as close as we can.

I acknowledge your request for somewhere in the middle as many have requested.. better skintones than the old OLPF and less noise than the new OLPF and its on our short-list for OLPF options. Its important to have the best of both sides like we have now.. but sometimes making something for the middle makes perfect sense.

Great news - a goldilocks OLPF. We are holding out for this. I`d happily take this WITHOUT the swappable mount. I`m sure others are in the same boat.

 

[Martin Stevens]

Thanks Jarred and the Red Team........ thanks for everything you do.

It's awesome, frankly.

 

[Jarred Land]

Thanks Jarred and the Red Team........ thanks for everything you do.

It's awesome, frankly.

thank you.

And I wanted to make something clear.. I don't want people to think we only care about the high-end, big-budget productions.

Most of our customers are the indy filmmakers, and when I just pointed to the cinematographers that I respect the most there isn't a budget bracket that they all fit in. Cinematography isn't about how many lighting and grip trucks you can afford or how big your dolly is.

We spend the most time with cinematographers that I would consider on the "indy" side, and hence we get the most feedback from them. Some of the best images ever shot on our camera have been "free" shots. I think Cinematography evolves the most from Independent films as the D.P usually has alot more control and freedom and usually has a bit more room to push the envelope and experiment and take risks.

We of course love the fact that the big guys who have the choice of anything they want use use our cameras to shoot the biggest films., but that goes back to making the best image. Our job is to give you the best camera possible that takes the best image possible, and your guys job is to take that camera and shoot the best films you possibly can, no matter what the budget is.

Getting the BEST image possible is where the OLPF options come in.. because just like lenses and film and pretty much everything else that matters there isn't one thing that can do everything the absolute best. Some people shoot primes some people shoot zooms. One gives you the best image possible, the other gives you flexibility. You will get the best image possible by choosing the right combination that fits the job. Some people may complain about needing to even think about that on the OLPF level... but some people appreciate it immensely. The good thing is that the choice is yours.

 

[Sergio Perez]

thank you.

And I wanted to make something clear.. I don't want people to think we only care about the high-end, big-budget productions.

Most of our customers are the indy filmmakers, and when I just pointed to the cinematographers that I respect the most there isn't a budget bracket that they all fit in. Cinematography isn't about how many lighting and grip trucks you can afford or how big your dolly is.

We spend the most time with cinematographers that I would consider on the "indy" side, and hence we get the most feedback from them. Some of the best images ever shot on our camera have been "free" shots. I think Cinematography evolves the most from Independent films as the D.P usually has alot more control and freedom and usually has a bit more room to push the envelope and experiment and take risks.

We of course love the fact that the big guys who have the choice of anything they want use use our cameras to shoot the biggest films., but that goes back to making the best image. Our job is to give you the best camera possible that takes the best image possible, and your guys job is to take that camera and shoot the best films you possibly can, no matter what the budget is.

Getting the BEST image possible is where the OLPF options come in.. because just like lenses and film and pretty much everything else that matters there isn't one thing that can do everything the absolute best. Some people shoot primes some people shoot zooms. One gives you the best image possible, the other gives you flexibility. You will get the best image possible by choosing the right combination that fits the job. Some people may complain about needing to even think about that on the OLPF level... but some people appreciate it immensely. The good thing is that the choice is yours.

That is why we are all here. Great words.

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

That is why we are all here. Great words.

+1 Here too.

 

[NOSA OBAYIUWANA]

I think its brilliant that these forums exist. One thing I can say about our Red guys in Pinewood is that customer service is excellent, and no matter the issues I have had with our Scarlet, there has ALWAYS been someone to help. For me thats terribly important.

As we have paid for our Scarlet to Dragon upgrade, if other OLPF options become available will we be able to chose which option we want?

Also (to Jarred) are you guys on track with your upgrade path? Sorry to digress but I could not help asking.

 

[Nathan Apffel]

We just received the email notice today and our Epic is going into Red for the Dragon upgrade on Wednesday! We could not be more excited to put this tool to work. We LOVE the Epic and we cannot wait to put the Dragon into the wild.

Thank you Jarred and the team at Red for all your efforts to push the envelope.

 

[David Battistella]

From one of the Indy guys...

Thanks for all the posts and clarity Jarred.

reduser works best when we test and share, and discuss (like Phil does way more than the rest of us) but when turns into attacking and criticizing it's much less fun.

Battistella

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Before we released the new OLPF, nobody ever complained about "noise" from a Dragon. People complained about the flares and the skin tones and wanted more highlight retention. So for those people we fixed it, at the expense of the bottom end because the flares and skin tones were a result of letting in "bad" parts of the light spectrum to the sensor.

Jarred, couldn't you just make a filter that blocked those spectrums of light that could be put in the light path? People could then just put it in if there is a problem, much quicker than a olpf swap, or remove it out if they want?

Tell us about the new next camera people are implying? Which year is it coming?

Thanks again.

 

[Andrew Huse]

You know what, I am sick and tired of reading how terrible the MX sensor is on here. I'm officially standing up for MX as being an awesome capturing device. The images I've produced from MX have either met or exceeded my expectations. Prior to Epic I shot with a sony EX1 and I have to say MX changed everything for me. If you're shooting Dragon, that's great! More power to ya! But please do not put us MX users down. That really is infuriating to me personally.

 

[Jarred Land]

Jarred, couldn't you just make a filter that blocked those spectrums of light that could be put in the light path? People could then just put it in if there is a problem, much quicker than a olpf swap, or remove it out if they want?

Tell us about the new next camera people are implying? Which year is it coming?

Thanks again.

The problem with removing a filter on top of a filter behind the lens is that your back focus would be thrown out of whack when you did that, That is why even if you wanted the no-filtration option, you would put an optical clear filter the same thickness in there to keep everything aligned so you wouldn't need to reset your back focus every time.

Also (to Jarred) are you guys on track with your upgrade path? Sorry to digress but I could not help asking.

Yes indeed. We are on track and getting cameras out as fast as we can. Are you still waiting? I can change that.

 

[NOSA OBAYIUWANA]

I am still waiting. If you can change that My Christmas has come early

 

[Bruce Allen]

That " bad " light had an advantage because even though it was bad light, it was light and it lifted things up. Again... the MX did the same thing.. and that never bothered some people, but bothered others... Skin-tones have been the biggest complaint we used to receive since we started. The really talented guys will pick better color science, better skintones, and an image with a higher IQ over one that is a lesser image any day.

Thank you Jarred for the confirmation. That was exactly what I thought (and posted earlier).

Please make DEB something we can turn off.

DEB just loses too much chroma detail for me. It's almost like a harsh median filter - like when you have Chroma Noise Reduction turned up too high in Lightroom or DXO. You can't get that detail back. Dunno about you but I find myself turning that down more and more these days. I look at stills I shot years ago and just cringe at the fact I didn't pull the Chroma NR down more from the default back then.

I don't always want chroma NR in the beginning of my post chain and I'm surprised that someone like Phil is calling it "adding detail" when I'm sure someone with his technical skill can see that it is obviously not that simple. In that eye example, I can't believe people can't see it. But I guess the whole "smear a whole person's facial colors into one shade of bronze" thing has caused people to not look in the mirror and see what humans really look like.

Congrats on the color improvements - those really are the key for me. Looking forward to larger sensors, sensors with better S/N ratio, light-field OLPF inserts, etc in the future of course but this is exciting stuff and the fact that you can make Dragon look damn brilliant if you throw enough light at it is amazing. I just got off VFX supervising a promo shoot with the new OLPF Dragon where I was worried about its low-light ability and ready to shoot 180 degree shutter 24fps if needed... but we found that the sensor was sensitive enough for 90 degree 48fps which made tracking a tricky shot VASTLY easier. And the color looked great.

I guess I'm really in the minority here. I also understand people are upset that they did not get the promised "2000 is the new 800" - and it's nice to see you catering to them too. I think the real issue is in the messaging - if the upgraded OLPF had been presented with a clear warning that you lose a stop of light or whatever, people would have been far more receptive because then they could have made the choice with open eyes. But it was not done that way. I remember that there were a bunch of Alexa vs Dragon tests and everyone was saying how they were invalid because they were the old OLPF... the new OLPF would have greater latitude, etc. Phil's post just said you gain a stop and a third in the highlights, etc. Folks just thought they were getting MOORRREEE!

Please don't do the same thing with DEB. Just sell it for what it is. End 2c.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Ryan Sauve]

From a mom and pop indie shop (literally), thanks for that post Jarred. We were a little disappointed in the "2000iso is the new 800iso" not coming to fruition but we've been having a lot of fun getting to know our Dragon. You guys have built cameras that have really fueled our passion and we're really grateful for that. Here's a real world example that was captured on the same day we got our Dragon (OLPFv2 - no noise reduction other than ADD)...

... and yes, my wife writes some pretty crazy stories that are a lot of fun to shoot.