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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon??? So after nearly 10months what do we think? NATIVE 2000ASA no 18stops no ..

Matt Ryan said:
I hear you. When these first came out I was like it looks a hell of a lot better with DRX haha
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Hé hé
Anyway I would have prefered to see a dragon without DRX VS Epic MX with DRX for those two samples.
Edit : At the end I can see some similarity between DRX slider and DEB or ADD Just saying ;)
 
Robert Ruffo New said:
You know who else are perpetual fault finders? DPs who choose their gear very carefully, and test everything extensively. It's a big part of doing the job well.
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I think I'll defer to that sage of the Northwest to answer that one.

Gavin Greenwalt said:
Most Epics haven't been upgraded yet. So it shouldn't be surprising that individuals trickle in over time as they receive their cameras and test them. Also real DPs don't read REDuser for the most part so they are completely unaware that it's been talked to death.

This is the same reason we get a new "Wow I love my Dragon" and "Wow the Dragon is noisy" post every single day.
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luigivaltulini said:
Robert, please let're a very intelligent person and character.
Please do not overdo it as they are doing all of them.


1. The magenta line for Dragon I do not see differences with MX, this also applies Shot on Alexa.
I'd rather have the lines with DRagon that with MX, especially if you use light to tungsten.
So Dragon is the same as the MX, and like all CMOS sensors, more than those who less.


2. Deuce to say that Dragon be worse than MX 800 iso, is absolutely not true, as many Phil, John, Jan, Toia etc. etc. I have shown examples where esatamente be the opposite. I have posted video clips, commercials filmed in 1600/2000 iso very good.
So with the new Dragon OLPF is better than MX 800 iso the answer is YES, both externally and internal light Tungsteno.Ma know that's nice to have 2 or 3 more stops in the high lights, they are more calm on the set with MX, If you want then as it was promised in 2000 iso clean and miss a stop put back the old OLPF. But I assure you that once porvate DRagon with the new OLPF you will not go back.


3. Updates of this money worth them all, especially for the color and texture that can give this sensor.


Robert many tests are not part of real life on the set, I sincerely hope that all this fuss is calm, but it will happen only when the Dragon will be many out there and people will realize how good this camera. For now we sistuazione mixed.


As much as I like the MX, I can not think of going back just for a moment, as I all my clients for many years where I was bitten by Alexa now are all over the Dragon and I'm very happy. For me this' status confirmation.


I personally agree on only one factor that unfortunately Dragon is not clean in 2000 as it was with the old OLPF, for the rest I confirm what I said.


my thoughts, sorry for my bad English Robert: (

These are lines with MX (without correction I took the first pictures from the repertoire), are better than ... DRAGON?!?!?!?!

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Luigi, I only light with daylight sources, and maybe that's where MX shines more over Dragon - I must admit tungsten does not tend to be great-looking on MX in my opinion , but the sources I like are all 5600 (I realize this is not the case for others here) so my findings were perhaps different. I did extensive side-by-side tests, but only with daylight balanced lighting. Yes, color was better on Dragon, and yes, clipped highlights looked better 9it was very hard to make Dragon clip) , but the minuses, again, for me, far outweighed the plusses in terms of my own priorities. These minus included an excessive amount of resolution, that I really, really do not feel I need (just do not need more than 5K, ever) for the same field of view, leading to data issues, but I could live with that of the other problems weren't there.

Yes those lines are far less noticeable than what you get with Dragon, most unfortunately. Again, I have done side by side tests with a borrowed Dragon of the same Kino and neon sign visible in frame. The effect on MX was far more subtle, no worse than what you get on Alexa. Dragon basically nixed usability in many instances where a bright source was in frame. (Try it.)

I have no agenda here. I wish Dragon met my needs, because I'd love to have a new toy to experiment with, I have the money, and I'd love to see Red hit a home run with an indisputable winner. On the other hand, I did not just spend $10K on an upgrade, so really I have no horse in the race either way, unlike some others who might feel motivated to feel they made a good investment, because it was tough on their bank account

But so far, Dragon does not meet my needs for the way my wife and I shoot and the way we complete post, better than MX, especially since I know how to grade, grade all my own gigs (by contract) and don;t as much care (I know you grade too Luigi) about having perfect color "out of the box" - although I actually very much like MX color since Redcolor 3. Then again, I never light actors with tungsten, (nor low CRI sources like sodium lamps, etc), and if I did I might feel differently.

I did specify "for the way I shoot". Other users here may have completely different needs from mine.
 
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Elsie N said:
I think I'll defer to that sage of the Northwest to answer that one.
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Elsie, I am a real DP, who, completely unlike you, actually pays the bills only from film and video production and post-production, and graduated film school at a very good University. Many "real DPs" read and participate in this forum, and other cinematography forums where Dragon issues have been discussed at length. You know, David Mullen is a real DP, I personally think (sic), and he has more posts here than almost anyone - really, who the F___ do you think you are? Sorry, you do not meet the standard of someone I would agree to speak with. Us big city folks can be picky that way. Bye bye now.
 
Robert Ruffo New said:
Elsie, I am a real DP, who, completely unlike you, actually pays the bills only from film and video production and post-production, and graduated film school at a very good University. Many "real DPs" read and participate in this forum, and other cinematography forums where Dragon issues have been discussed at length. You know, David Mullen is a real DP, I personally think (sic), and he has more posts here than almost anyone - really, who the F___ do you think you are? Sorry, you do not meet the standard of someone I would agree to speak with. Us big city folks can be picky that way. Bye bye now.
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Hah! There's your trouble. Dragon is digital.

Yes, David is a moderator on the forum and is recognized as a Real DP. But I don't see David weighing in on "I can't shoot the Dragon because there is some noise."

Yes David is a real DP and he can take his camera and out produce you or he can take your camera and out produce you... because he is a real DP.
 
Bruce Allen said:
That's a bit sad. I would personally prefer that they just get the latitude out of the sensor without post tricks. Post tricks often bring compromises. Or they improve things but hurt *other* post tricks down the line... the chain is tricky and it's better to fix at the hardware.

Phil, in case you're wondering why people are accusing you of spin, take a look at your original post on the new OLPF:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?111400-Dragon-Flare&p=1320952&viewfull=1#post1320952

When you tested it, you said "That's approximately 1.3+ stops improvements in the highlights."

You did not say "...and a matching noise increase in the shadows."

Instead you said stuff like "richer shadow detail" - so I think folks then reasonably expected to see the same shadow detail but with better color and 1.3 stops improvement in the highlights with the new OLPF and they put down their $$$$ for the Dragon upgrade. And now they are pissed because you didn't mention anything about the shadow noise.

Surely you saw it, right? Why didn't you say anything? All you said was "Dark shadow areas are clean"

It sucks to post tests. It's pretty thankless because everyone just rags on every tiny thing you do wrong (hey, I still have people mad at Macgregor and I on DVXuser for the GH4 tests which dared to tell folks that the F35 still kicked its ass in a few ways). But hey, you're getting to play with the fun RED stuff early and you seem to enjoy it, so I hope it works for you.

But if you say "For the last couple days I've been digging into it real hard" ... how can you completely miss the shadow issue? Was it a mistake or deliberate? Either way, I can see why people are pissed. Sorry.
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Glad I woke up and put on my thick skin this morning. But, yes I'll talk about February.

I'll be very clear about this and I have posted this elsewhere on REDuser. The calibration has effected what the camera sees and how it's mapped by 1.3 stops overall. There's also the fact that the camera I was testing was a prototype, but I'll skip over that not so little fact for now. I will say the red specks problem in general was blown way out of proportion because projected and on screen it really wasn't really a factor, but meh. I digress.

The biggest thing I'm dealing with the last few days (and weeks) has been stress testing DEB, which is being released pretty soon. Also, I've been attempting to assist the few people sending me very underexposed material and being upset because it's "too noisy" when they cranked the ISO, often past 2000. And even worse not exposing to the rated ISO for the given scene and what they want to see. That's where the big massive gap is in getting good results as far as I'm concerned. I've been very transparent and you guys are literally seeing what I find.

When I'm describing "richer shadow detail" I'm meaning that there's more detail in the shadows. It's actually surprising how much more channel information is in the V2 versus V1 OLPF, this is the color science improvement that Jarred was alluding to. If you dig into the noise floor on both the V1 and V2 OLPFs you will unsurprisingly have noise.

I've put a lot of effort into sharing my thoughts, .R3Ds, criticisms, and general best practices on how to assist shooters in making better pictures with their cameras.

I'm uploading some footage at the moment. Exposed well and under exposed somewhat well. Gimme about 35 minutes or so.
 
Sergio Perez said:
I hope the RED TEAM is monitoring this thread. Personal jabs aside, great info and opinions here. Red always listens. I think its time to take all this in and come up with the usual RED kick on the b@lls shocker solution that blows us all out of the water. We are All red users here and I believe- diverging opinions withstanding- everyone just wants the best for the system they support/use/invested/love. We are all in this together. There's something certainly worth discussing and improving here. Lets do this.
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I hope that too - that's why I cam out of hibernation and walked down the fanboy gauntlet to make some posts, not to "whine and complain" (I didn't even buy the upgrade, I just tested it, so I'm not mad about anything and I have nothing to complain about to Red - my Red Epic MX exceeds expectations - I just want them to improve, because now the bank is enjoying my $10K rather than the front of my camera.

Returning to hibernation now...
 
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i am so happy to got the Dragon very early, not too early, i got the Dragon when the new OLPF just came out of oven.
if i would have got the mail later , and after reading all this, maybe i might have hesitated. i am happy this did not happen. Dragon is simply better than MX, i have both here side by side, everyday. and 2nd MX will go on the journey soon after closing one project.

no camera is perfect. just saw this from F65, see it at second 40: video-clipping at it´s best. who did wrong .... ?

0:40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmKzqAoUepk
 
Elsie N said:
Hah! There's your trouble. Dragon is digital.

Yes, David is a moderator on the forum and is recognized as a Real DP. But I don't see David weighing in on "I can't shoot the Dragon because there is some noise."

Yes David is a real DP and he can take his camera and out produce you or he can take your camera and out produce you... because he is a real DP.
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Do you think they don't teach you digital acquisition in film school? Are you really that ignorant? Do you think that film schools that have Red cameras call themselves "digital schools"? You don;t think David (who also went to film school) and others have discussed Dragon noise problems with their producers and other DPs? Do you really think you could help me figure out any "problem" of mine? That you're smart enough for that? Really?

I didn't say I couldn't use Dragon (and there were many other reasons besides noise) I said I preferred other RED products, still for sale in the Red store. As an died in the wool fanboy, shouldn't that be OK with you? Or does it throw your brain into a feedback loop because the official stance is to now prefer Dragon? Do you realize that Hollywood, award winning DPs, this summer - have in some cases chosen MX over Dragon? Do you realize that many very, very successful DPs , have voiced concerns of noise and other Dragon issues, here and elsewhere, and that you are saying that anyone who is critical of Red's new sensor, is, according to your opinion, not a real DP? Do you realize how crazy that sounds?
 
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Hope our dragon comes in soon. just want to test stuff out for myself. No secondary research. Phil.. what's your opinion about using the F5/F55 for night exteriors and the Dragon for everything else (on an independent feature)?

1) There will be just slight grading as we want to try to achieve our look in camera.
2) Can you give a quick impression on grading F5/F55 footage


Cheers

P.S: I think everyone appreciates your efforts on Reduser, even if they don't agree, I think they are all still aware how much time and effort you put in.
 
Jan Reiff said:
that´s it.
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I see lots of black crush in the bottom image (the guy's shirt), and the middle image (under the bridge) and noise in the sky, and these images are very small, which hides noise. Sorry, I'm not saying Dragon is crap, I'm saying in some ways, ways very important to me and the ways I shoot and perhaps others here, MX is, all things considered, and conceding that Dragon also has some advantages as well of course, a better choice than Dragon.

Dragon will for sure improve in the future, at which time I will revise this opinion.

Meanwhile I continue to love my MX
 
NOSA OBAYIUWANA said:
Have not shot dragon yet. But it seems for night photography the F55 might be a better option particularly on an independent feature and tight budget. Does anyone here have experience of cutting both together - night F55 and day dragon?
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Any MX camera is an awesome choice, and will cost a lot less in hard-drives and rentals, and give you much more latitude in post. MX (Epic especially, shooting at 5K) with some post noise reduction is very close to as clean as an F55.
 
Robert Ruffo New said:
Do you think they don't teach you digital acquisition in film school? Are you really that ignorant? Do you think that film schools that have Red cameras call themselves "digital schools"? You don;t think David (who also went to film school) and others have discussed Dragon noise problems with their producers and other DPs? Do you really think you could help me figure out any "problem" of mine? That you're smart enough for that? Really?

I didn't say I couldn't use Dragon (and there were many other reasons besides noise) I said I preferred other RED products, still for sale in the Red store. As an died in the wool fanboy, shouldn't that be OK with you? Or does it throw your brain into a feedback loop because the official stance is to now prefer Dragon? Do you realize that Hollywood, award winning DPs, this summer - have in some cases chosen MX over Dragon? Do you realize that many very, very successful DPs , have voiced concerns of noise and other Dragon issues, here and elsewhere, and that you are saying that anyone who is critical of Red's new sensor, is, according to your opinion, not a real DP? Do you realize how crazy that sounds?
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Don't be so thin-skinned. You come to the hornets nest and strike the side of those of us who prefer Dragon v-2 OLPF and don't expect pushback?

OBTW, you responded to one of my posts first... I was content to just skip over your posts and leave you in your altered state. I have no problem with anyone being critical of RED's sensor if it is justified. But take a look at the snaps David Battistella just posted, or what Jan Reiff has posted, or what others have posted with the Dragon.

Any one who doesn't see how that beats the MX is someone I can't take seriously, no matter how smart they say they are.
 
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Robert Ruffo New said:
Well, just 1080p (most people's finish, and almost always mine) would be fine.
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David always post me that picture size in private messages since years, I don't think he is hiding something.
Cheers
 
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