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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DRAGON SENSOR yes or no... now or later

I think we should wait and see what Dragon will be, but I do trust Jim and all at RED that Dragon will be something we all will want when it eventually does come out
and most importantly, each one can decide for them selves if they want or not to upgrade
 
A 6k FF sensor would give the best of worlds for:
Stills
Anamorphic
resolution at S35 - shoot 4k or 5k if you want PL glass or S35 sensor size
FF35 motion if that suits the project or lenses you have (talking about everyone with a canon mount)...
next-gen dynamic range

sounds great to me!!!!! What's not to like?
 
The 5600k thing is due to some weird green tint thing applied as a factory default.

If you go into looks and minus the green to .90 then the wb tents to look correct. I like to leave everything at 5000k 320 iso and store a couple of looks that make clients happy.

No way to adjust tint in the camera and export look to camera is not working all that well right now.

Dragon.

After and if Arri release a 4k camera. But not before.


David
 
I have been working on a video where I did a short interval crop of a face during some old 4k footage. It happened so seamlessly I was unaware where it happened when reviewing the edited footage. If Dragon is 6k, then I hope to upgrade because I want any cropped footage shown on a big screen to be as imperceptible as the 4k footage was on my computer monitor.
 
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I agree that aspects of Dragon are not needed. I can see them wanting to compete with F65 though. However, the one reason I am looking forward to Dragon is for better ISO performance. Epic is great with that right now, especially considering how far cameras have come in the past few years. But with cameras on the horizon that can handle 12,000 ISO or 20,000 ISO and have perfectly usable footage, I think RED won't want to be far behind them.

To be clear I don't expect that much of an ISO performance boost with Dragon. But if usable ISO's were pushed a little further I would be stoked. I am also hoping for some even higher frame rate options.
 
Taking into account the track record of Red, have nothing but all the reasons to believe the Dragon update will be significant. What if it will be one of those things in which this kind of "customer surveys" become completely misleading because nobody has an idea on what they are taking sides? For instance, Apple was the first one who came out with a touch screen phone because other manufactures knew from their customer surveys that customers did not want to have touch screen phones. So, who knows what Jim has in mind inthe Dragon sensor. :-)
 
I think that depends on the competition. If Sony released their new sensor, most probably Red will release dragon. But next year is definitely too fast

Rivai
 
David Battistella said:
No way to adjust tint in the camera...

David
Click to expand...

Say what? Yes you can. Instead of tapping the Kelvin setting and sliding through the scale, hold your finger over the area for a second. All of your presets such as Daylight, Fluorescent, Tungsten, Cloudy, etc. are selectable...along with tint on the right side.

Also, for shooting timelapses, tap and hold on the framerate and proceed to select 1fps or whatever framerate you choose. When selecting framerate, you may sometimes be able to shoot a higher framerate than you think. For example, in 3K mode when scrolling through the framerates, it looks like 150fps is the limit. The truth is that you can shoot up to 160fps in 3K.

When using a Canon mount, you may tap/hold on the aperture. This opens the window for you to dial in the aperture, as well as how many inches/feet you wish to focus.
 
I agree with others that Dragon is likely an end of 2012/1st quarter 2013 upgrade.

Assuming and guessing at this point is shooting in the dark. But we can safely bet increased dynamic range and better high ISO performance. Might be interesting if there's better low ISO performance as well.

If Dragon brings higher resolution and a potentially larger sensor, something like 8-perf FF35 (close to a 3:2 aspect ratio) could make a lot of sense. You can extract full S35 from that pretty easily. 3:2 could be really useful for screens like IMAX as well. If that sensor/resolution upgrade lands in the 6k-9k resolution territory the DSMC concept would basically trounce other full frame "still cameras" out there. In terms of motion, the other guys are still way behind in feature set and resolution.

I think Red's goal after some balancing occurs will be to stay about two years ahead of the competition's technology road map.
 
@hutson

Thanks man. I always forget about tap and hold. The interval part of the TL is not in the 2.0.5 build yet. It's just 1fps but it triggers 1fps. I want it to trigger a frame every ten seconds and it does not do that.

I'll do the tint thing

I hope they add a save all/import all to the presets so that when resetting FW and stuff it's easy to get normalized.

Hope your shoot is going well.

David
 
"The only fault I can see is Colour temp is out: 5600k is more like 3900k... " - I don't know what you're on about. Do you want to email me?

Graeme
 
David Battistella said:
@hutson

Thanks man. I always forget about tap and hold. The interval part of the TL is not in the 2.0.5 build yet. It's just 1fps but it triggers 1fps. I want it to trigger a frame every ten seconds and it does not do that.

I'll do the tint thing

I hope they add a save all/import all to the presets so that when resetting FW and stuff it's easy to get normalized.

Hope your shoot is going well.

David
Click to expand...

Glad to be of help. I honestly couldn't be doing any better here in Dubai... ;)
 
1st - don't ask me about Dragon. Not going to say anything on that!

Jake Bastian said:
I think it'll be the format rather than the resolution that puts it out of most people reach, but I still think it's a necessary release for RED if they really want to compete with film.

To play devil's advocate: it's recommended to scan film at 4K, 4096 of each R, G & B - old argument sure, but hear me out. Epic is technically 5120, 2560, 2560 which to some people means they are making up the difference by doing pixel math, Graeme magic math, but still math nonetheless. Not only that, but now they are saying film actually resolves to 6K each color and even higher depending not the film you use. So RED needs 6K to match film and really they'd have to go up to an 8K sensor before all the technical math naysayers relented on their not really 4K arguments (which are ridiculous given that even with that math RED is still putting out a higher resolution and better quality image than anyone else that resolves to a much higher resolution than anyone has been able to touch until recently with the F65)
Click to expand...


Jake, when you look at a film scan you certainly don't get the same resolution in each channel. The grain size and structure differs among the channels. Although some technical films can measure very high resolution, practical motion picture stock does not - coming in under 3.5k measured resolution.

As for magic math, in a 5120x2560 sensor, you have more than enough greens alone to get 3.6k without any "magic math" (as you put it, and I'll take it as a compliment) at all. When you factor in that the math also looks into what the red and blue are doing, using their data for resolution also, it's not surprising you get a good measured 4k.

"they are saying film actually resolves to 6K each color" - not sure where that's coming from, but is not the case with the film I've looked at, and even if it was, it would still never be the same for each channel and one look at a film scan will show you that.

Graeme
 
Mark Toia said:
You know what... I think RED are mad bringing out the DRAGON sensor next year...
Click to expand...

I'll say it again... ;-)

Imho

Dragon won't arrive for normal customers (Epic X customers) before early 2014.
Epic Stage 4 won't start before June 2012.
Stage 3 as of today has not yet started.

The Dragon upgrade will come right in time.

Pat.
 
I am all about higher DR yesterday, but there isn't much of a rush with such a lovely sensor in M-X. I really hope Dragon photosites remain about the same though. My ideal would be 4k resolved from a sensor area about S35 or the current 5k area. Then that would mean much higher resolution for bigger sensor areas which would be very interesting from a glass perspective, but would also mean higher data storage necessary and a RedRocket II or some super fancy and secret ASIC capability to do a flawless downscaling in-camera... :)
 
Dear Mt Toia
STFU! :001_tt2:

I'm very ready for the Dragon.. you can stick to the regular sensor as long as you like but don't plant any seeds of delay on this project THANKS!

Plus who knows what else the Dragon will hold besides a larger sensor. like the MX there may be sensitivity or DR gains too..

So yeah STFU

love
jas
 
Graeme Nattress said:
"they are saying film actually resolves to 6K each color" - not sure where that's coming from
Click to expand...

I'll back Graeme on this. Via a Northlight Film Scanner scanning at 6k most S35 isn't resolving "detail" past 4k in reality. 8k film scanner setups fascinate and confuse me a bit, but they do have some advantages. Scientific/intermediate stocks can indeed resolve past 4k and into the realm of 6k, but people don't really shoot movies on that. They do export them via laser recorders on that though.
 
Mark Toia said:
You know what... I think RED are mad bringing out the DRAGON sensor next year...
Why I think this... (and this is purely my personal thoughts only) is that 99.9% of us are barely scratching the surface of the current information and resolution from the MX chip in the EPIC as it is... true?

About 2 % of us are actually mastering in 4k. the rest in 2k (to Jims disgust), but we will be in the future Im sure.

The EPIC is so far ahead of the competition and the people using the other camera don't even know the real benefits of shooting RAW 4k as it is., they are just happy with HD PRO RES...
Click to expand...

You're assuming Dragon is about resolution.

Personally, I hope that Dragon is about latitude, lack of noise, and better color performance.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
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