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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DRAGON SENSOR yes or no... now or later

Mark Toia

Mark Toia

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You know what... I think RED are mad bringing out the DRAGON sensor next year...
Why I think this... (and this is purely my personal thoughts only) is that 99.9% of us are barely scratching the surface of the current information and resolution from the MX chip in the EPIC as it is... true?

About 2 % of us are actually mastering in 4k. the rest in 2k (to Jims disgust), but we will be in the future Im sure.

The EPIC is so far ahead of the competition and the people using the other camera don't even know the real benefits of shooting RAW 4k as it is., they are just happy with HD PRO RES...
5k EPIC is almost 6 times the res... ? so do we need even more again at this current stage of FILM & TELEVISION...?

So what I'm saying is this... Does DRAGON really need to come out this year, since MX is well enough for all our needs for at least a couple of years yet..., 4k will become the next medium... and then maybe its time to play with 6 and 8k cameras...
Remembering RED has handed us all a camera well before its time...

Also... we all just got our cameras... and now an upgrade 6k or 8k chip arrives.. do we need it just yet. If your using the RED camera for photography... YES. TV? No... , Feature film.. Maybe, but 4k is enough for that.

I can most certainly wait for it thats for sure :))) but I'm hoping it will be awesome when it is finally released.

PLAYBACK build rocks by the way... I have shot over 3500 shots on the latest build this last 3 days, PLAYBACK is getting a flogging, Client loves it! I love it.... fast, simple... free!!!!, The kipro has not come out of its box in a week, It's about to go into early retirement I think.

The camera is not missing a beat... from being Rained on in one country, stinking humid hot the next... we are most certainly testing it hard... Our spare bodies are not seeing light of day. (thanks goodness)
The only fault I can see is Colour temp is out: 5600k is more like 3900k...
But hey, Im shooting RAW.. so does not worry me. I'll fix it later..

I love this camera.
 
We'll allways "need" more.

Thaty said: I have no plans to upgrade my Epic. That is until I feel the need for that.

The Epic so fixes all the shortcommings I have seen in other cams, that I am in no hurry for an upgrade.

That said:
That was allmost exactly what I thought when I got the original R1.

Because we can take a lot more highlight latitude without feeling sad... :)
(Built in ND's anyone?)

But the epic is great as it is!
 
I definitely dont see much point upgrading the scarlet. Thats madness, surely?

It will just be canon L lenses and Masters/ultras/Leicas etc that will cover right?
 
I've always thought of RED wanting their products to reach a certain level of performance before they release it. I see their "2012 Dragon Timeframe" as something to strive for which pushes themselves a bit beyond the limit.

If they reach their expectations for the Dragon by end of 2012, fantastic. I'm happy, because that means they've got an upgrade worth jumping on board with...and not just an upgrade for upgrade's sake.
 
According to my own analysis Dragon upgrade sensor should show up at upcoming NAB.

What would be a kind of incarnation of that sort of appearance that could be either full specs on a paper

or a real sensor with upgraded Epic and Scarlet presented at the show then we have to wait and see (!?).

Then upgrade program could start end of next year or later at the beginning of 2013.
 
As i understood it Dragon / Monstro update in current Epics and Scarlets may bring more latitute / color detail but might not be 6K/8K as planned for future full 24x36 frame cameras... And stay a S35 camera with same pixel size...

I may be wrong but that's how I understand it...
 
Welcome Mr. Dragon sensor, welcome Mr. Ray sensor (made up) in the nearest future, but what I am really hoping for from RED cameras is to finally use "Global Shutter", then Mr. Film can eventually retire.
I think it's time!
 
Dragon sensor means better signal/noise ratio which should equate to significantly higher ISO's with same quality imaging. FF lenses come into their own on Epic/Scarlet (consider Nikon/Ruby 14-24mm for example). Prices drop on used pro glass designed for S35. It is a win-win. Count me in on the Dragon.
 
I think it'll be the format rather than the resolution that puts it out of most people reach, but I still think it's a necessary release for RED if they really want to compete with film.

To play devil's advocate: it's recommended to scan film at 4K, 4096 of each R, G & B - old argument sure, but hear me out. Epic is technically 5120, 2560, 2560 which to some people means they are making up the difference by doing pixel math, Graeme magic math, but still math nonetheless. Not only that, but now they are saying film actually resolves to 6K each color and even higher depending not the film you use. So RED needs 6K to match film and really they'd have to go up to an 8K sensor before all the technical math naysayers relented on their not really 4K arguments (which are ridiculous given that even with that math RED is still putting out a higher resolution and better quality image than anyone else that resolves to a much higher resolution than anyone has been able to touch until recently with the F65).

I look forward to the opportunity to shoot RED Dragon, but won't upgrade as the price of the lens will only be half the price when I realize I also need to lenses to fit the sensor.
 
I say bring it on. I expect Red Dragon to be still S35. A different "Monstro" Full frame brain should appear in the future. The "Dragon" should still be APS-H but with better than Alexa native latitude (with the possibility of going even further if using HDR) . The other big improvement will be low light performance. This sensor should be the ultimate S35 sensor of the next 5 years. HOWEVR, by early 2013, I expect the full frame beast to come with even better Dynamic range and low light, and of course bigger resolution. This would need a new brain for the increased computing requirements. I would say 8K Full frame in 2013, 5K 200FPS S35 with better than Alexa Native latitude and better or similar than Canon C300 low light in 2012 (with Dragon).
 
Singularity... the pace of RED's technological progress is so fast that people don't even want it.... can we just postpone the future a little later? I say bring it on. What's amazing to me is now a camera is just a small computer with a touch screen interface. That is really disturbing some old timers from the mechanical camera background. The future is about to be ripped wide open beyond the capacity of our imagination. RED has to bring it... else Sony or others will... just to compete and one up RED. I hope Zeiss, Cooke, Angenieux, Canon, RED... manufacture the lenses that we need next year for full frame and medium format. Many people anticipating the future are waiting on those lenses.
 
First of all, we know zip about the Dragon specs. It could be a higher res sensor. Could be a larger form factor. Could have significant dynamic range improvements. Could be all or none of the above. I don't think anyone can really speculate on if we "need" it or not until we know what it even is. That being said, I wouldn't turn down a sensor with any of that stuff being a current Epic owner myself. I'm so much happier with my Epic than I was with my RED ONE and I know they are only going to continue to improve and evolve their program. Thank god for RED because no one would be doing it if they weren't around.

Also, RED has targeted 2012 - which if history is any indication, means it'll probably come out in 2014. So I would say their time frame is just about perfect. :)
 
Vance Colvig said:
Dragon sensor means better signal/noise ratio which should equate to significantly higher ISO's with same quality imaging. FF lenses come into their own on Epic/Scarlet (consider Nikon/Ruby 14-24mm for example). Prices drop on used pro glass designed for S35. It is a win-win. Count me in on the Dragon.
Click to expand...

Nope:
Higher ISO with less noise is true

You still lose a lot of tonality when you underexpose the sensor. That's the fun of linear light capture.
 
Mark Toia said:
Built in ND's ... now ya talking!

Would be cool if this was a firmware thing, rather than a fiddly internal filter thing.
Click to expand...

how could it be a firmware thing ?
i believe that is called lowering the ISO ... or magically increase the DR of sensor 3 to 9 stop ...(not possible)

that is Why ND goes in front of the sensor ...to physically block the light and lower the exposure ...

i guess you would not need ND the day that sensor have 30 stops of latitude ...

g
 
I for one think the argument is a bit of a no-brainer.

Stills acquisition, or motion for stills, could use a boost both in absolute resolution and sensor size IMHO.

Motion acquisition doesn't really need more than 4K at this time, unless you are shooting for IMAX projection.
Some redusers are...Tom?
Red should target this IMAX market. As a Torontonian, its kind of close to my heart. You had to be there in the '70s.
S35 is a great size for motion...it works for focus pullers!
But things get tricky wide open with full frame...or larger.
But of course RED is building solutions for this too.

I think we have to think about pixel density.
5K at s35 is a pretty good base for 4K delivery.

Expanding the sensor to FF35 size adds more pixels (higher res) or larger pixels (better DR) or some combination of the two for stills.
But it also allows for entry in to IMAX territory in terms of max pixels, but where ludicrously shallow depth of field isn't an object in itself.
It also allow for pixel binning (dirty words, I know) for reduced resolution but a large sensor "look" and some increase in DR (*averaging).
It worked wonders for the *cough* 5Dmkii. But you don't have to debayer and export at 8K...and media is only getting cheaper for capture.

Vista Vision is marvellous for motion, overkill at times. But I feel its entry level for stills (and IMAX?) to some degree.

Your opinions may differ.
 
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