Dragon Reality Check

[paul schefz]

i would still love to see a simple scene 5K raw from epic, 6K raw from dragon....preferably at 400, 800, 1600 and 3200....

 

[Phil Holland]

Okay. This is going in a useful and constructive direction. Questions.

2 XLR's
2 HDSDI outputs
Timecode
+1 for on board monitoring with LCD
2 Lemo jacks for wireless follow focus or other accessories
Built in Mini Mag slot for 4k Prores recording
Mini lcd displaying current settings, recording status, time remaining for 4k proxies, audio levels and timecode.

Preferably all of this on the dumb side.

I think on board 4k recording ready to edit is really important moving forward. Editors can get straight to work and even finish with that workflow, or re-link to the R3D's for color and VFX. I think this would help supplant RED cameras further throughout the industry. You keep the RAW flexibility but you get the speed as well.

The 2 HDSDIs that are desired, could this be consolidated to one HDSDI and a simple compact splitter solve the need for more?

The Mini LCD, much of this is shown on the LCD Touch or Bomb EVFs, which also can be sent to external or additional display. Would you want/need a dedicated display for this and/or would you like a redesign of how the information is present?


On thing I would say could be useful is a REDMAG calculator that produces in minutes the amount of record time left for the given format, resolution, and REDCODE Compression Ratio rather than displaying media percentage on screen. This would be a thing that could be toggled no less to display either of those options.

Just to add a few 'wish list' items into the mix, I'd love to see these things as new module systems as well:

NEEDS:
+ 4 full size XLR ports (I use 3+ a LOT)
+ SDI-type Timecode port
+ Rows of 1/4"-20 mounting points on top
+ Sliding durable memory foam shoulder pad system that mounts directly below the brain. Getting precise balance every time is key to being able to shoot all day. This is probably the biggest need for my shooting style.

WANTS:
+ Dual slot full size or mini REDMAG SSD slots for continuous recording. Doesn't need to be a spanned clip (those can cause problems), but one card should pick up right where the previous card left off.
+ Lock-it box (or similar) built in to maintain consistent timecode
+ Additional 6G HD-SDI and HDMI 4K out ports with selectable looks applied
+ Additional RED Lemo Monitor out port
+ 1 USB 5V out port
+ 2 Lemo power-out ports

Ah. So you're the guy who need 4 full size XLRs! Kidding Interesting concept on the dual mags. I don't think a USB tap is happening anytime soon, I'd be shocked if Red wanted that, but I see the desire for it.

Timecode sync is interesting. I jam once or twice a day via recorder and life is good. (Zaxcom) Wireless sync would be sexy pants for me though.


For those curious, one of the ways I rig my Clutch:

I am a big and firm believer in Dovetails as balance on shoulder and tripod are utterly important to me. This rig I can slide on and off in a jiffy for shoulder and tripod use.

Another configuration:

I didn't have the spare hands or time luxury to slide the rig on and off, so I went with this particular setup. Worked real nice.

The other one I use a lot is separating the front handles from the Clutch and leaving on the 19mm rods and just have the shoulder pad slide on and off via Dovetail. All three can be balanced pretty nicely.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

The media time remaining thing for sure would be fantastic.

What I also would like to see is a anton baur quick plate.

Part of the beauty of reds back xl battery module with aux power, is that the side handle can power the aux port. BUT, the fact that it can't handle large draw is A BIG professional oversight. I also would like to see improvement on the red quad charger. It's finicky. And the side handle revolt mechanism is kind of janky sometimes.

 

[Matt Ryan]

Okay. This is going in a useful and constructive direction. Questions.

The 2 HDSDIs that are desired, could this be consolidated to one HDSDI and a simple compact splitter solve the need for more?

The Mini LCD, much of this is shown on the LCD Touch or Bomb EVFs, which also can be sent to external or additional display. Would you want/need a dedicated display for this and/or would you like a redesign of how the information is present?


On thing I would say could be useful is a REDMAG calculator that produces in minutes the amount of record time left for the given format, resolution, and REDCODE Compression Ratio rather than displaying media percentage on screen. This would be a thing that could be toggled no less to display either of those options.

I would say just do the 2 sdi jacks. Otherwise we're adding on a splitter which adds unwanted bulk and a dangly thing. I'd rather if it's a new setup, have it done properly and not need workarounds like we currently do.

I'd personally like to see a little 3 inch lcd on the dumb side with the read out. That way when plugging in audio, timecode, etc, you get instant feedback without having to look to the onboard monitor. Press the display button to flip through the "pages" of info. The display would be useful to read in minutes for sure.

But I think the #1 most important thing is a 4k "proxy" recorder. Something like 422HQ 4K. How could the haters hate on that? It's exactly what everyone wants while still capturing the RAW data simultaneously. This recorder will have to also have the processing power to capture slow mo real time, not on a playback recording like currently implemented. This would propel RED right up there with Arri usage wise.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

YES. Lots of people would want this. Lets just go all the way and have it do 4kprores 422 10 bit, as well as 12 bit 4k prores444.

The Red FIZ wireless handheld unit could benefit from antenna protection like the newest RT motion one does. I'm not convinced it is a better choice than RT Motion's offering in general...

 

[Phil Holland]

YES. Lots of people would want this. Lets just go all the way and have it do 4kprores 422 10 bit, as well as 12 bit 4k prores444.

Additional question. Considering the landscape today is it:

- More important to have on board 4K proRes 422 or whatever?
- More important to have a 4K out to send to an encoder that can encode proRes, VP9, HEVC, DNxHD, etc. ?

 

[Ruff]

I am amazed that Red has not released a second product line already.

A Production Camera

to go with the wonderful, small Epic that we currently use.

Traditionally on film jobs we have always had big production cameras for the main units, and smaller high speed MOS cameras for 2nd units or specialty rigs.

I see a lot of demand for it in my market.

Alexa dominates, and the Amira is going to have a big impact as well.

But the Alexa M never took off here. People choose the Epic for small size.

Personally, I like the tiny Epic, it fit's in with the way I shoot. But for normal sized productions and assistants Alexa is the first choice. A lot of that is because it is ergonomically designed for the way crews work, and powering accessories is just so easy.

A big production epic, and the current small epic… that would be a great combination.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I would say just do the 2 sdi jacks. Otherwise we're adding on a splitter which adds unwanted bulk and a dangly thing. I'd rather if it's a new setup, have it done properly and not need workarounds like we currently do.

Less than 2 SDI outputs is a mistake IMO. 2 is minimum. Many reasons for this.

I'd personally like to see a little 3 inch lcd on the dumb side with the read out. That way when plugging in audio, timecode, etc, you get instant feedback without having to look to the onboard monitor. Press the display button to flip through the "pages" of info. The display would be useful to read in minutes for sure.

Yup. A few solid advantages to being able to do things with the camera without a touchscreen LCD attached. WIFI to the camera is the major game-changer for me - and if/when I get that - I certainly won't ever use a 3" LCD on the camera side with buttons - BUT - lots of people will. Lots of ACs love the LCD and fat/solid buttons on the side of the ALEXA more than the sensor. That is a fact.

But I think the #1 most important thing is a 4k "proxy" recorder. Something like 422HQ 4K. How could the haters hate on that? It's exactly what everyone wants while still capturing the RAW data simultaneously. This recorder will have to also have the processing power to capture slow mo real time, not on a playback recording like currently implemented. This would propel RED right up there with Arri usage wise.

Sorry - totally disagree. I want RAW and proxy for editorial. I can do that realtime NOW. There are already two decent 4K prores recorder options - more coming - we don't need this. We do need a 4K out module with quad SDI and HDMI 4K out - then - all is possible. I'm not yet sold on 6G - MAYBE it will become a standard - but I swear to god - anything originating from Balckmagic gives me pause ....

But I will give you ... #1 Module Needed = 4K out live. SDI + HDMI

 

[Matt Ryan]

Additional question. Considering the landscape today is it:

- More important to have on board 4K proRes 422 or whatever?
- More important to have a 4K out to send to an encoder that can encode proRes, VP9, HEVC, DNxHD, etc. ?

On board 4K... You can take those to edit. Sending 4K wirelessly to an encoder has a lot of room for error and isn't quite reliable enough. Maybe in 4 years when the tech is rock solid, no dropouts, no interference, and longer range. Until then it's too risky on high end jobs.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Additional question. Considering the landscape today is it:

- More important to have on board 4K proRes 422 or whatever?
- More important to have a 4K out to send to an encoder that can encode proRes, VP9, HEVC, DNxHD, etc. ?

The easy answer is both could be very useful. If I were to pick only 1, I'd prefer an onboard integrated module with proves that could record proper slomo. Simply because I could use epic on jobs that are now better suited to a c300 for example. Canon is announcing 2 new Cinema EOS cameras this year, and you can bet they will have onboard 4k compressed recording. And most likely the 4k Alexa will too...

 

[Matt Ryan]

Less than 2 SDI outputs is a mistake IMO. 2 is minimum. Many reasons for this.


Yup. A few solid advantages to being able to do things with the camera without a touchscreen LCD attached. WIFI to the camera is the major game-changer for me - and if/when I get that - I certainly won't ever use a 3" LCD on the camera side with buttons - BUT - lots of people will. Lots of ACs love the LCD and fat/solid buttons on the side of the ALEXA more than the sensor. That is a fact.


Sorry - totally disagree. I want RAW and proxy for editorial. I can do that realtime NOW. There are already two decent 4K prores recorder options - more coming - we don't need this. We do need a 4K out module with quad SDI and HDMI 4K out - then - all is possible. I'm not yet sold on 6G - MAYBE it will become a standard - but I swear to god - anything originating from Balckmagic gives me pause ....

But I will give you ... #1 Module Needed = 4K out live. SDI + HDMI

I want a 4K out as well, and think it should be available now (HDMI 2.0 and whatever sdi spec is picked up). But on board recording is important (with proper slow mo recording) if RED wants to dominate the market more and take away jobs from Sony and Arri. The other cameras are popular because it is easy to just drag and drop and go to work.

I don't want to mount a Pix or Ninja for proxies, and the off speed implementation is terrible. I want that all built in and I think it makes for a tidier package.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I want a 4K out as well, and think it should be available now (HDMI 2.0 and whatever sdi spec is picked up). But on board recording is important if RED wants to dominate the market more and take away jobs from Sony and Arri.

I can do "on board recording" now with a Dragon and a Ninja Blade. 6K RAW + HD ProRes orDNxHD - smaller form factor than an F55 doing AVC + RAW.

HDMI 2.0 would be a logical choice as it's the "next" standard - but for the record - HDMI 1.4 is fine - no advantage that I know of for 30fps or less in rec. 709 4K monitoring.

 

[Matt Ryan]

I can do "on board recording" now with a Dragon and a Ninja Blade. 6K RAW + HD ProRes orDNxHD - smaller form factor than an F55 doing AVC + RAW.

HDMI 2.0 would be a logical choice as it's the "next" standard - but for the record - HDMI 1.4 is fine - no advantage that I know of for 30fps or less in rec. 709 4K monitoring.

But that defeats the purpose of a small, all in one package. I don't want to mount an external recorder and the slow mo implementation sucks. It would be better if it was in camera and in 4K (you can finish with it and be ready for new displays and broadcast vs 1080p). Arri will be doing it soon, so will Canon, and Sony is already doing it.

It should be HDMI 2.0 so Peter Jackson and James Cameron can play back and view their 48fps/60fps material real time in 4K. Also, for any of us who go that route.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

They should do both. Really no reason not to. Isn't that the point of a modular system?

 

[Matt Ryan]

They should do both. Really no reason not to. Isn't that the point of a modular system?

Exactly

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

But that defeats the purpose of a small, all in one package. I don't want to mount an external recorder and the slow mo implementation sucks. It would be better if it was in camera and in 4K. Arri will be doing it soon, so will Canon, and Sony is already doing it.

Yes, everyone knows ARRI is going to do 4K ProRes. We don't know the size and the price. Or what year it will ship - I hear 2015 earliest!

Currently - ARRI's 2K "all in one package" RAW + ProRes is not that small ... or that cheap either.

Sony has a RAW module. It's NOT part of the camera. It attaches to the back. It IS an external recorder. I have MORE options of where to attach a Ninja Blade or Odyssey 7/7Q IF I want that workflow.

Canon only has 4K output to external recorder.

RED's biggest advantage is it's RAW recording. Those who want to use the camera for OTHER workflows - live 4K broadcast, ProRes acquisition, etc. - should have a module to do it.

Regardless, they can't do 4k recording without getting 4K out. So ... 4k live out module first. Then we see where things are with 3rd party 4K recorders.

 

[Matt Ryan]

Yes, everyone knows ARRI is going to do 4K ProRes. We don't know the size and the price. Or what year it will ship - I hear 2015 earliest!

Currently - ARRI's 2K "all in one package" RAW + ProRes is not that small ... or that cheap either.

Sony has a RAW module. It's NOT part of the camera. It attaches to the back. It IS an external recorder. I have MORE options of where to attach a Ninja Blade or Odyssey 7/7Q IF I want that workflow.

Canon only has 4K output to external recorder.

RED's biggest advantage is it's RAW recording. Those who want to use the camera for OTHER workflows - live 4K broadcast, ProRes acquisition, etc. - should have a module to do it. But it's a mistake to make the camera bigger and more expensive IMO in order to make the camera into "every" camera.

That's why I said there should be 2 models. The Epic as we know it now (which has a ton of uses) and the fully featured version (Alexa style with onboard 4K) for an additional cost. That way you can pick your weapon when renting for a specific job and RED takes over a larger portion of the market.

 

[Brian Merlen]

I think 4k output is important cuz it means we can choose our encodes ourselves. on board if it can do overcranks would be more important, but not sure if that will be in the cards ever

Additional question. Considering the landscape today is it:

- More important to have on board 4K proRes 422 or whatever?
- More important to have a 4K out to send to an encoder that can encode proRes, VP9, HEVC, DNxHD, etc. ?

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

That's why I said there should be 2 models. The Epic as we know it now (which has a ton of uses) and the fully featured version (Alexa style with onboard 4K) for an additional cost. That way you can pick your weapon when renting for a specific job and RED takes over a larger portion of the market.

I do not disagree at all. However - IF RED was to make another model - the central question that needs to be answered is WHAT is the purpose of that model - is it to attract a different market segment? Or ... is it to take everything it has learned and make a "better brain"? Those are actually two VERY different things.

A very over simplified view of RED vs ARRI could be stated as this:

RED discarded the rules and made a camera for people to own. They embraced and re-ignited the entire "owner/operator" market.

ARRI, which for decades, sold their camera to rental houses, made a camera for that culture.

This is actually the core of a lot of anti-RED sentiment. When you personally own a camera - it's yours. You make the rules. You can forgive or forget or adjust how you do things based with the gear. Your gear. You are in control.

But on bigger TV shows and films - experienced ACs and Operators are focused like a laser on their specific role and responsibility. And they don't want to worry about anything. They want simple, solid, easy. And a back-up cable for their back-up cable. They don't care if the image is better or worse than XYZ camera - or if it's 1K or 12k. They want to know they can do their job with confidence and efficiency. And if they have a tough or scary time with XYZ camera - boy will they talk about it. And Facebook about it. And Tweet about it.

Some of the things that make these folks "comfortable" are based on what they know and how they have worked in the past. MANY of the best come from working with film cameras for decades.

So ... rebooting ... is WAY more stressful to them than fighting a film mag that keeps jamming 35mm neg every hour or so. Silly ... I know ... but it's just how people are wired.

I'm just saying that it's one thing to spec a "better model" of the EPIC. It's another thing to spec a "different model" of the EPIC to attract a different market. And it's ANOTHER thing to spec a camera that that's a little of both

 

[Matt Ryan]

I do not disagree at all. However - IF RED was to make another model - the central question that needs to be answered is WHAT is the purpose of that model - is it to attract a different market segment? Or ... is it to take everything it has learned and make a "better brain"? Those are actually two VERY different things.

A very over simplified view of RED vs ARRI could be stated as this:

RED discarded the rules and made a camera for people to own. They embraced and re-ignited the entire "owner/operator" market.

ARRI, which for decades, sold their camera to rental houses, made a camera for that culture.

This is actually the core of a lot of anti-RED sentiment. When you personally own a camera - it's yours. You make the rules. You can forgive or forget or adjust how you do things based with the gear.

But on bigger TV shows and films - experienced ACs and Operators are focused like a laser on their specific role and responsibility. And they don't want to worry about anything. They want simple, solid, easy. And a back-up cable for their back-up cable. They don't care if the image is better or worse than XYZ camera - or if it's 1K or 12k. They want to know they can do their job with confidence and efficiency. And if they have a tough or scary time with XYZ camera - boy will they talk about it. And Facebook about it. And Tweet about it.

Some of the things that make these folks "comfortable" are based on what they know and how they have worked in the past. MANY of the best come from working with film cameras for decades.

So ... rebooting ... is WAY more stressful to them than fighting a film mag that keeps jamming 35mm neg every hour or so. Silly ... I know ... but it's just how people are wired.

I'm just saying that it's one thing to spec a "better model" of the EPIC. It's another thing to spec a "different model" of the EPIC to attract a different market. And it's ANOTHER thing to spec a camera that that's a little of both

I understand what you're saying. I believe the new model should include all of the aforementioned features as well as a couple additional. What if it used the Dragon sensor, but came standard with a true global shutter and built in ND's. Would that make sense business wise? Would it alienate existing owners... I can't answer those questions and more, but I think it would do well.

P.s. I'm known as a RED fanboy and not attempting to be critical of RED. If I could own any camera I'd personally get Dragon. I'm just trying to expand the market and adapt the current system to be more widely adopted while keeping a low profile. Tired of boxes and module after module for functionality and external recorders for certain jobs. But then again, at times I wouldn't want anything but it in a stripped down format. That's why I personally think two models, one ENG style build would serve certain situations while current form factor works for others.