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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon Reality Check

I really like where this thread is headed. One of the things RED has always been fantastic about is listening to their loyal user base.

I'm sure some of these ideas will end up somewhere in the RED product chain, and I have a feeling they'll surprise us with some great stuff that we haven't even come close to thinking of.

I do agree with the idea of having a built in selectable proxy module. I know that idea has surfaced and then disappeared, and resurfaced again. I can tell you that's the number 1 hurdle I have to overcome when convincing new people about why shooting RED is the way to go.

If there was a way to shoot both REDCODE RAW (which is the backbone of everything, and something we all understand and love), AND everything from ProRes 4444 in 4K to ProRes422 LT in 1080p at the same time at all available frame rates through a proxy module, that would make a lot of people who are new to RED very comfortable with jumping on board. They'll have the familiarity of a codec they're comfortable with, then we can wow them with what REDCODE can truly achieve.
 
Burke Doeren said:
everything from ProRes 4444 in 4K to ProRes422 LT in 1080p at the same time at all available frame rates through a proxy module, that would make a lot of people who are new to RED very comfortable with jumping on board.
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Can you name ONE camera or recorder that can currently record 4K ProRes ( or XAVC or ANY RGB codec) at more than 60 fps?
 
Couple of pages back I was starting to regret starting this thread, thanks a bunch for everyone chiming in with constructive conversation.

People have been asking for proxy recording for years, RED finally announced the proxy module and then killed it before it ever took off. My gut feeling is that RED fears people will end up bypassing REDCODE all together and take the "proxys" all the way from editorial through delivery. Most would consider 4K ProRes 422 more than enough for web and TV and thus bypass REDCODE. RED's whole approach is raw, maybe thats why they are hesitant. I stay native but some clients I'd love to hand them ProRes because they simply don't understand R3D workflow. My computer starts to bog down after an edit exceeds 5 minutes but most my projects are around that length. For long form edits having instant ProRes would be nice. I know 3rd party solutions exist and I might jump on one of those.

But that brings up another point. I've noticed most rental houses around here are hesitant to buy third party gear, if they have an Epic package they want as much of the package to be RED gear. Thats why solutions from RED, although usually more expensive helps provide both rental houses and those renting with some piece of mind.

As for designing a new body all together, kind of torn on this one. If RED could figure out a module or two that can take you there then it could maintain the small body that can easily be made into a production size camera most are used to like Alexa form factor. Like the Meizler with a shoulder pad. If they designed it in a way that was real sleek and made it seem and look like a whole new camera with much added functionality it could be a big deal for RED. Full size production camera, need to shed some pounds? take off the module and you've got your small Epic we're used to.

As an owner/operator I love the modular approach, but I can see why on big shows renting multiple camera packages 1st ACs hate it. RED is trying to please two very different markets and that is where a lot of the debate stems from.
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
Can you name ONE camera or recorder that can currently record 4K ProRes ( or XAVC or ANY RGB codec) at more than 60 fps?
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I think he means the ability to record slow mo real time. No need for timebase recording above 60fps for the next 10 years.
 
Matt Ryan said:
I think he means the ability to record slow mo real time. No need for timebase recording above 60fps for the next 10 years.
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Matt - I will re-phrase - name ONE camera or recorder that can currently record 4K ProRes ( or XAVC or ANY RGB codec) in slow mo real time when shooting above 60 fps?
 
So the one thing that's ringing in my mind is based on this conversation and the features people want is one question.

Is this a new camera model or can this be achieved through a well designed module?

Which leads me down the train of thought to what the Meizler Module was, as some of the features it contained are represented in these "wants".

We were only told that the Proxy Module was dead and that we needed to "forget everything we knew" about the Meizler Module. Red likely is working on something to fill the gap of these two products.


I'm not totally sold on the idea of a total new body mostly because the Modular concept is as much a selling point as it is a contested point. So perhaps a new Field Production Module (or whatever) is what the doctor ordered, just scratching all of these itches.

As it stands, Dragon right now from a performance perspective is squarely aimed at the F65 and Alexa to produce the resolution, color, and dynamic range to make it a superior system. The image quality comes first for me, but that's not always the most important thing when looking at a total production workflow. However, Epic Dragon is priced significantly differently than those systems. Which really leads me back to proxy support using proRes and I'd hint at perhaps the other future codecs the industry is slowly (or quickly depending on how you look at it) adopting.


The problem there is that there's 3rd party support on that front already. So to me, and that's if Red's going to offer this solution and knowing how they like to do things, it's going to need to be better than the competition in terms of formats supported and overall feature set.

4K monitoring is a given and will happen. Don't know if I need a 4K LCD Touch however, but who knows what's going to happen a year or two from now.
 
Carlos Reyes said:
As an owner/operator I love the modular approach, but I can see why on big shows renting multiple camera packages 1st ACs hate it. RED is trying to please two very different markets and that is where a lot of the debate stems from.
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It is my opinion that the modular approach is GREAT - but it's true power has NOT been realized yet because the RIGHT modules have not been released ... yet.
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
Matt - I will re-phrase - name ONE camera or recorder that can currently record 4K ProRes ( or XAVC or ANY RGB codec) in slow mo real time when shooting above 60 fps?
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F55 does 2K - 240fps Raw and 2K - 120fps in Camera (XAVC) and RAW simultaneously. I think RED could make this happen for 4K. It's RED after all and sony can do it in camera and RAW simultaneously at 2K.

Alexa 2K - 120fps in camera at Prores 422 , 60fps at Prores 4444.

RED is a leader in the tech game for a reason. I bet they can do it and would like to see them be the first...
 
RED has always been an owners camera. Given todays market for stabilizers, 3D and aerial drones, RED hit the ground running because of it's size. Being able to carry all your gear in a back pack onto a plane is incredible. But I see the point of people who are used to renting gear and being hit with a tonne of variables on what a standard RED kit is. If there was a dedicated new camera body that was geared towards rental houses which harnessed the most common modules, I can see this gaining traction. Rental houses hate dealing with red because it is so modular. Of course I'm making a gross generalization here.
 
Matt Ryan said:
F55 does 2K - 240fps Raw and 2K - 120fps in Camera (XAVC) and RAW simultaneously. I think RED could make this happen for 4K. It's RED after all and sony can do it in camera and RAW simultaneously at 2K.

Alexa 2K - 120fps in camera at Prores 422 , 60fps at Prores 4444.

RED is a leader in the tech game for a reason. I bet they can do it and would like to see them be the first...
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I'm not saying it's impossible Matt - but encoding 4K ProRes at more than 60fps takes some SERIOUS processing power. A TON more than 120fps in 2K. That's a lot of heat to deal with. I'm just pointing out that NOBODY has this yet. Nobody that I know of records 4K RGB faster than 60 fps.
 
@Bob the sub contractors get what the rental house stocks as standard. if anything its a benefit to the house that they can pick and choose accessories. maybe not so much to producers though who then have all the variables to deal with between rental houses? granted there is plenty of over lap i am sure at the big firms package wise
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
I disagree. We just want better modules :)
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What would be great is if they could combine all of the Innocinema modules with the +1 and 4K proxy recorder into one. That would be the module to end all modules haha

action_products.jpg

transmitter_hdmi_07_2_1_1.jpg

module_transmitter__1_08_2_1_1.jpg


I mean, that setup is still compact, functional, and very neat. It even has a top port for Paralinx transmitter and other stick wireless transmitters. Amazing system, just wished it came from RED and could be controlled from the brain with a 4K recorder added in there.
 
Matt Ryan said:
What would be great is if they could combine all of the Innocinema modules with the +1 and 4K proxy recorder into one. That would be the module to end all modules haha

action_products.jpg

transmitter_hdmi_07_2_1_1.jpg

module_transmitter__1_08_2_1_1.jpg


I mean, that setup is still compact, functional, and very neat. It even has a top port for Paralinx transmitter and other stick wireless transmitters. Amazing system, just wished it came from RED and could be controlled from the brain with a 4K recorder added in there.
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Yep, I use it a lot and it's FANTASTIC, they've really KILLED IT with the integration and design. It's funny how many people don't know about or overlook this system, it solved so many issues...
 
Paul E. McCarthy said:
I would like to see the proxy recording integrated into the touch screen. Imagine a Mini SD slot on your OLED touch screen which you could record every prores and dnx hd under the sun.

Arri would be F'd.

VP9 maybe...
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SmallHD Dp7 will be unlocked to do this very soon. 1080p H264 to SD cards.
 
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