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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DRAGON-or-HELIUM

Michael J Brennan said:


Here's a chart I've prepared for comparison.


Red camera specifications
EAOA

Legend

Example: R2H8k5/300
R Red
2 DSMC body version, 1 or 2 (new)
H sensor name, Dragon or Helium
8k number of horizontal pixels, 4.5 to 8k
5 pixel pitch (size of pixel) 3.2 or 5 microns
140 internal recording (in MB/s) 72-300MB/s


Red Store Camera Designation
Scarlet Dragon R1D4k5/72
Epic-X Red Dragon R1D6k5/200
Epic-M Red Dragon CF R2D6k5/200
Raven R2D4.5k5/140
Scarlet-W R2D5k5/140
Epic-W R2H8k3.6/275
Weapon Helium R2H8k3.6/300
Weapon Magnesium 6k R2D6k5/200
Weapon Forged CF 6k R2D6k5/200
Weapon Woven CF 6k R2D6k5/300
Weapon 8k VV R2D8k5/300

Monochrome sensor versions excluded.

Mike Brennan
Click to expand...

pixel pitch is 3.65 microns in Helium, not 3.2...

other than that, insanely confusing as many have mentioned... best way to deal with the current naming conventions is to group by sensor: Dragon | Helium
 
Jarred Land said:
Epic Dragon is max 200MB/s

Epic-W is max 275MB/s
Click to expand...

so, can u spill the beans before 10/11 on what the lowest compression rate is for 8K @ 24fps on E-W ?

if E-W is 275 MB/s then could we possibly look at 7:1 compression for 8K @ 24fps ?

8K FF | 16-bit | 24 fps | 7:1 | single chip ~ 242.67 MB/s...

that is below the 275 benchmark and leaves some headroom for other stuff...

8K FF | 16-bit | 30 fps | 9:1 | single chip ~ 235.93 MB/s...... does the E-W need ~ 40MB/s headroom ?


all numbers here for 8K FF 8192x4320 frame... in 8K WS, even less bandwidth needed...
 
Michael J Brennan said:


Here's a chart I've prepared for comparison.


Red camera specifications
EAOA

Legend

Example: R2H8k5/300
R Red
2 DSMC body version, 1 or 2 (new)
H sensor name, Dragon or Helium
8k number of horizontal pixels, 4.5 to 8k
5 pixel pitch (size of pixel) 3.2 or 5 microns
140 internal recording (in MB/s) 72-300MB/s


Red Store Camera Designation
Scarlet Dragon R1D4k5/72
Epic-X Red Dragon R1D6k5/200
Epic-M Red Dragon CF R2D6k5/200
Raven R2D4.5k5/140
Scarlet-W R2D5k5/140
Epic-W R2H8k3.6/275
Weapon Helium R2H8k3.6/300
Weapon Magnesium 6k R2D6k5/225
Weapon Forged CF 6k R2D6k5/300
Weapon Woven CF 6k R2D6k5/300
Weapon 8k VV R2D8k5/300

Monochrome sensor versions excluded.

Mike Brennan
Click to expand...

How's this Epic DSMC2? Though that Epic (and Scarlet?) was always DSMC1, and Weapon is DSMC2. Strange.

Thanks anyways! :biggrin:
 
other than that, insanely confusing as many have mentioned... best way to deal with the current naming conventions is to group by sensor: Dragon | Helium
Click to expand...

I don't disagree. What is confusing is the inclusion of Magnesium in only one model name.
Significant points of difference in performance and price between models is identified in short hand by the data rate.

Helium is already becoming synonymous with 8k.
Whitout my specs , VV looks like a W ;)

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Michael J Brennan
How's this Epic DSMC2? Though that Epic (and Scarlet?) was always DSMC1, and Weapon is DSMC2. Strange.





Thanks anyways!
biggrin.gif
Click to expand...

You are correct, Epic M Red Dragon CF is DSMC 1, corrected, thanks, Scarlet is DSMC2.


Mike Brennan
 
Last edited:
Mike Nagel said:
does the E-W need ~ 40MB/s headroom ?
Click to expand...

I'd wait for the final specs, but....

The Internal Data Rates are decided based on the hardware inside. ASICs, processors, and other goodies which is more or less what makes the difference in price and specs on different camera tiers.

The "headroom" that you are describing is partially a write safety net, especially at peak writes for certain framerates and whatnot. Toss in Dual Recording of REDCODE RAW and an Intermediate Codec like ProRes or Avid DNxHR/HD and there you go.

But yeah, short answer. Need a more powerful robot for higher Data Rates.
 
Epic-W Helium = 275 MB/s
Weapon Helium = 300 MB/s (right?)

The price difference is anywhere from $20-$40K (temporary $20K deal, and $60K Stormtrooper).
Seems like a steal for those who want it.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Akin A said:
Epic-W Helium = 275 MB/s
Weapon Helium = 300 MB/s (right?)

The price difference is anywhere from $20-$40K (temporary $20K deal, and $60K Stormtrooper).
Seems like a steal for those who want it.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
Click to expand...

I don't believe we've been told data rate for Weapon Helium. One might assume its the same as CF Weapon Dragon, but I'd say that's just an assumption at this point.
 
Phil Holland said:
I'd wait for the final specs, but....

The Internal Data Rates are decided based on the hardware inside. ASICs, processors, and other goodies which is more or less what makes the difference in price and specs on different camera tiers.

The "headroom" that you are describing is partially a write safety net, especially at peak writes for certain framerates and whatnot. Toss in Dual Recording of REDCODE RAW and an Intermediate Codec like ProRes or Avid DNxHR/HD and there you go.

But yeah, short answer. Need a more powerful robot for higher Data Rates.
Click to expand...

all clear...

the only thing I wanna know is the lowest possible compression setting in 8K WS on E-W - no additional output format written simultaneously - just RAW.

What is the lowest compression on Weapon Helium in 8K WS ? Anybody know ?
 
I thought I saw 9:1 somewhere but not sure if that's official
 
Anyone with a helium know if it's possible to edit the 8k r3d's on a new top spec MacBook Pro with an internal ssd in premiere pro?
I.e. Will the playback quality settings go low enough for passable realtime playback?
 
Dominik Bauch said:
Anyone with a helium know if it's possible to edit the 8k r3d's on a new top spec MacBook Pro with an internal ssd in premiere pro?
I.e. Will the playback quality settings go low enough for passable realtime playback?
Click to expand...

Should be about the same as editing Epic Dragon footage yeah?
 
Good time to refresh this with a bunch of new Helium owners coming online.
Would love to hear and see first hand experiences with Helium vs Dragon. Understood that Helium CS isn't out yet but... (any word on when that will be released?)
- Can anyone do some tests with base ISO to see how Helium does with highlights? If Heliums base ISO is 1600 or higher then a Dragon comparison with an ND'd Helium to accurately compare apples to apples would be super helpful.
- How does the color feel vs Dragon? Is it more Alexa like out of the box?
- Is the image noticeably crisper than Dragon? I've seen the blow ups and Helium looks great in that department but is it night and day vs Dragon? Probably a stupid question given the resolution but interested to hear real owners impressions.

Thanks, be super interested to hear thoughts. I know I'll probably have to upgrade but a little on the fence as there is little official talk about the Helium image.
 
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