Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DRAGON-or-HELIUM

luigivaltulini

luigivaltulini

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 26, 2009
Messages
2,524
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Location
Switzerland- LUGANO
Website
www.cine5k.ch
Beautiful RED camera .Ho had some time to try it with my Dragon.
Helium is definitely a new sensor with new colorimetry, sometimes the look is similar to ALexa .. or maybe I'm going crazy hehe
The resolution is something really crazy, the vision of 4k be very good screen.
Dragon I really like it still has many points in favor compared to Helium ..
It will be a tough choice if I were to do an upgrade! I guess it all depends on the upgrade price ..
IBC and close. ;)
14125089_10207464147824212_4043046881036708579_o_zpsszr3hvsu.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
 
Never had the chance to have a Helium camera in my hands, but from the few R3D samples posted on RU the Helium sensor looks superior to Dragon in every way.... most of of all, it produces images that are much cleaner. Not sure yet if Red is planning to release a color science specific to Helium but even the way it is the images looks stunning.
 
What do you mean "sometimes the look is similar to Alexa"?
 
luigivaltulini said:
Beautiful RED camera .Ho had some time to try it with my Dragon.
Helium is definitely a new sensor with new colorimetry, sometimes the look is similar to ALexa .. or maybe I'm going crazy hehe
The resolution is something really crazy, the vision of 4k be very good screen.
Dragon I really like it still has many points in favor compared to Helium ..
It will be a tough choice if I were to do an upgrade! I guess it all depends on the upgrade price ..
IBC and close. ;)
14125089_10207464147824212_4043046881036708579_o_zpsszr3hvsu.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
Click to expand...

Um...looks like the lenses are reversed. The 70-200 should be on VV and the 28-80 should be on the He. Just sayin...
 
jacobo:
for me it is very important to do a grade real-time, with Dragon 6k I have no problem full debayer, while Helium I can not go beyond the 16 fps.
If I install the redrocket all right but I missed D.E.B for Dragon. so I have to use the processors.

Bobby/Curran:
certainly the color and slightly different and better out of the box, for what I could see and I'm happy.
Of course there will still be improvements with the new science of color.
What I have noticed is that Dragon is even better in dynamic range with the same OLPF. Especially in the highlights.
But even this may improve in the future as it has been for Dragon.
Helium is less noisy, true, but not so far from Dragon Weapon, for what I can see on my monitor.

jake:
when i have time with ALexa i will try a chart test color .. but as I said maybe I'm going crazy hehe
I should try starting with redwidegammutrgb and log310 ...
I hope to do it soon :)
 
luigivaltulini said:
Helium is less noisy, true, but not so far from Dragon Weapon, for what I can see on my monitor.
Click to expand...

Ohh, I think you're not pushing Helium anywhere near where it can go... From what I've seen the difference is night and day (see what I did there?) :)
 
I can see a future for both Dragon and Helium, especially when it comes to FOV and data management.

Lets not forget, at 8K a Dragon Sensor is larger than VISTA VISION (40.96mm wide)!!
While at 8K, Helium is MUCH SMALLER (29.9mm).

Similarly, a 6K Dragon sensor is 30.7mm wide (way larger than S35's 24.89mm)

While a 6K Helium sensor would be 22.4mm wide (smaller than Raven 4.5K's 23.03mm, and just covers Academy).

The proportionally larger sensor sizes of DRAGON...at the same resolution...is still a major PLUS for Dragon vs Helium, IMHO.

Its for that reason the ratio of FOV to DATA also still favors Dragon. A Scarlet-W at 5K will have the same FOV as Helium at 6.5K, while using much less data (at same compression).

So it really depends on what you need.

Need a lowlight camera with that delivers 8K-7K resolution out of standard S35 glass? Go Helium, no question. The blacks look AMAZING!!

Need a massive sensor that can use Vista Vision glass? Go Dragon 8K.

Want to shoot Super 35 and use less data? Go Scarlet-W.


What RED has done is EXPAND their family to cover MORE NEEDS THAN EVER BEFORE.

Personally, I don't see Helium as replacing Dragon. But instead as living side by side with it. It wouldn't shock me if RED continued down this TWO SENSOR strategy indefinitely. Each pixel size delivers unique benefits (in sensor size, DR, lowlight), so why not continue exploring those?

It's really pretty ingenious if you think about it.

But no shock to those who've watched RED push the envelope year in and year out...their addiction to innovation is always nothing short of inspiring.
 
Last edited:
I agree Nick, until I see some side by sides, Im going to have a hard time giving up the field of view and depth of field when shooting dragon 6k widescreen or 2:1. I love it, its a very unique look, I shoot at f2 a lot on full frame contax lenses and this dragon sensor size at 6k is awesome
 
Jake Wilganowski said:
I agree Nick, until I see some side by sides, Im going to have a hard time giving up the field of view and depth of field when shooting dragon 6k widescreen or 2:1. I love it, its a very unique look, I shoot at f2 a lot on full frame contax lenses and this dragon sensor size at 6k is awesome
Click to expand...

Exactly. To get that FOV on Helium, you'd have to go 8K, which is:

A: Expensive (its a Carbon Body, so $50K minimum).
B: Data intensive: the data sizes will be MUCH larger than Dragon 6K

Which is why I see a place for both Dragon and Helium.

I personally do mostly portrait work with multiple cameras (2 or 3), so larger FOV and DATA are huge concerns for me...making Dragon still much more appealing for the work we do (for example there is NO WAY I could DIT a 3 camera 8K shoot on a laptop during a regular 12hr shoot day, whereas we can JUST do that with Dragon 6K)

That said, having an Epic-W could be really helpful for us too. We love shooting on Standard Primes (but the wides barely cover 4.5K on Dragon), so getting more lowlight AND getting more coverage out of classic cinema glass....could be a cool tool to have as well.

Which is why I can see Helium and Dragon living side by side on set.

If RED's color science can make them intercut seamlessly, that could be HUGE.
 
Nick Morrison said:
I can see a future for both Dragon and Helium, especially when it comes to FOV and data management.

Lets not forget, at 8K a Dragon Sensor is larger than VISTA VISION (40.96mm wide)!!
While at 8K, Helium is MUCH SMALLER (29.9mm).

Similarly, a 6K Dragon sensor is 30.7mm wide (way larger than S35's 24.89mm)

While a 6K Helium sensor would be 22.4mm wide (smaller than Raven 4.5K's 23.03mm, and just covers Academy).

The proportionally larger sensor sizes of DRAGON...at the same resolution...is still a major PLUS for Dragon vs Helium, IMHO.

Its for that reason the ratio of FOV to DATA also still favors Dragon. A Scarlet-W at 5K will have the same FOV as Helium at 6.5K, while using much less data (at same compression).

So it really depends on what you need.

Need a lowlight camera with that delivers 8K-7K resolution out of standard S35 glass? Go Helium, no question. The blacks look AMAZING!!

Need a massive sensor that can use Vista Vision glass? Go Dragon 8K.

Want to shoot Super 35 and use less data? Go Scarlet-W.


What RED has done is EXPAND their family to cover MORE NEEDS THAN EVER BEFORE.

Personally, I don't see Helium as replacing Dragon. But instead as living side by side with it. It wouldn't shock me if RED continued down this TWO SENSOR strategy indefinitely. Each pixel size delivers unique benefits (in sensor size, DR, lowlight), so why not continue exploring those?

It's really pretty ingenious if you think about it.

But no shock to those who've watched RED push the envelope year in and year out...their addiction to innovation is always nothing short of inspiring.
Click to expand...


Yep Nick this ;)
 
(speculation) If the colour science acts as a channel Clamp on the maximum brightness (to ensure white light remains white) - it may well be the Helium pixels are recording in raw beyond the existing luma limit - and that extra DR could materialise in October.

Another aspect that has not yet been revealed is the read-reset (maximum frame rate / or maximum horizontal lines per second) of the new Helium architecture. I would be surprised if there was not a step up in performance that the DSMC2 body could leverage.

AJ
 
Last edited:
Nick Morrison said:
While a 6K Helium sensor would be 22.4mm wide (smaller than Raven 4.5K's 23.03mm, and just covers Academy).
Click to expand...


Is it possible that since Helium is a totally new sensor (and manufacturing process, I assume?) that they won't stick to the fixed pixel density that they used with Dragon (i.e. 5K is the same physical sensor size whether it's the Scarlet-W or 5K mode on the Weapon) and move to an option to pick a resolution for a given sensor size? For example, you could pick a 6K S35 sensor (larger pixels, better light sensitivity) or an 8K S35 (higher cost, more media overhead, etc)
 
luigivaltulini said:
Yep Antony is possible.

here what I could do in a few minutes available.
All at the same aperture. only one in street is different shutter sorry .
Here I loaded you with the original files.

So we can discuss all together :)
instill that's the beauty of reduser;)

link files r3d:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7XaujRxB3rxcGVKQ3R5eWlBWnc

link tiff photo:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7XaujRxB3rxa3I1Z3RkeVloZGc


2_zps4156218e.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
Click to expand...

I probably miss something here. The Helium doesn't look good at all in term of DR. Is it because of the color science not available yet? The chart, the lamp, some other pics.
 
Just occurred to me, If Helium's base ISO is 2000 (a guess) vs Dragon's 800, then shooting them both at 800 could indeed have worse highlights for Helium, as it's optimal DR range would be spread too far into the shadows.

Just a guess here...

luigivaltulini said:
Yep Antony is possible.

here what I could do in a few minutes available.
All at the same aperture. only one in street is different shutter sorry .
Here I loaded you with the original files.

So we can discuss all together :)
instill that's the beauty of reduser;)

link files r3d:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7XaujRxB3rxcGVKQ3R5eWlBWnc

link tiff photo:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7XaujRxB3rxa3I1Z3RkeVloZGc


2_zps4156218e.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
Click to expand...
 
Nick Morrison said:
Just occurred to me, If Helium's base ISO is 2000 (a guess) vs Dragon's 800, then shooting them both at 800 could indeed have worse highlights for Helium, as it's optimal DR range would be spread too far into the shadows.

Just a guess here...
Click to expand...

A base iso of 2000 would be annoying, especially if it's losing so much information at a different iso.
 
Nick Morrison said:
Exactly. To get that FOV on Helium, you'd have to go 8K...
Click to expand...

I thought that field of view at a given mm is impossible on 8K Helium? Meaning 6k dragon with its 1.3 crop from full frame is much bigger than 8k Helium. Am I mistaken?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top