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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DRAGON-or-HELIUM

Someone smarter than me should break down the above comparison, I can't download things at the moment, but I would hope the helium woukd be way cleaner so it could be shot at a higher ISO because these frame grabs at equivalent iso's are not selling me
 
sam karr said:
RedwidegamutRGB and log3g10, same exact basic levels copied to both.

Dragon (2k -> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/90344707/dragon.jpg)
dragon.jpg


Helium: (2k -> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/90344707/helium.jpg)
helium.jpg
Click to expand...



just to be clear.
The shots of the chart DSc lab and 3 girls were shot with Dragon sensor before clipping at T16/ 250 iso. So I took the lens with the same aperture T16 and repositioned on Helium.
Obviously Helium having less latitude in the highlights, the results is clipped of the 3 girls in this r3d.
I have not had time to shoot the 3 girls with a more closed aperture for Helium. Sorry.
 
Popping in from out of the country, but this should help to visualize and compare Dragon and Helium.

Dragon 6K and Helium 8K:
http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare/formatCompare.cgi?formatOne_typeTech=RED%7CDragon&formatOne_format=6K+FF&formatTwo_typeTech=RED%7CHelium&formatTwo_format=8K+FF&focalLengths=

As you can see the difference is negligible essentially. Helium 8K will help with coverage on some lenses btw and also Helium 8K is a proper DCI aspect ratio at 8K FF for those who find that sort of thing nice.

Here's Dragon 8K and Helium 8K:
http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare/formatCompare.cgi?formatOne_typeTech=RED%7CDragon&formatOne_format=8K+FF&formatTwo_typeTech=RED%7CHelium&formatTwo_format=8K+FF&focalLengths=

That's a bigger difference. That is more or less the choice between two different formats. VistaVision+ or Super35mm+.
 
Thanks Luigi. Let's get some live skin tones next, if you can, since that's where the color really matters.
 
Phil Holland said:
Popping in from out of the country, but this should help to visualize and compare Dragon and Helium.

Dragon 6K and Helium 8K:
http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare/formatCompare.cgi?formatOne_typeTech=RED%7CDragon&formatOne_format=6K+FF&formatTwo_typeTech=RED%7CHelium&formatTwo_format=8K+FF&focalLengths=

As you can see the difference is negligible essentially. Helium 8K will help with coverage on some lenses btw and also Helium 8K is a proper DCI aspect ratio at 8K FF for those who find that sort of thing nice.

Here's Dragon 8K and Helium 8K:
http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare...D|Helium&formatTwo_format=8K+FF&focalLengths=

That's a bigger difference. That is more or less the choice between two different formats. VistaVision+ or Super35mm+.
Click to expand...


The difference is negligible? You must be talking about size only.
 
Brody_B said:
The difference is negligible? You must be talking about size only.
Click to expand...

Yes, this is in response to the sensor size discussion a couple pages back. This shows only the difference in format size/image plane.
 
luigivaltulini said:
just to be clear.
The shots of the chart DSc lab and 3 girls were shot with Dragon sensor before clipping at T16/ 250 iso. So I took the lens with the same aperture T16 and repositioned on Helium.
Obviously Helium having less latitude in the highlights, the results is clipped of the 3 girls in this r3d.
I have not had time to shoot the 3 girls with a more closed aperture for Helium. Sorry.
Click to expand...

Looks about a stop less in the highlights... We were so busy asking ourselves if we could see into shadows, we forgot about the light:)
 
Akin A said:
Thanks Luigi. Let's get some live skin tones next, if you can, since that's where the color really matters.
Click to expand...

Ciao Akin,
link in the post # 14, there are links to download, perhaps not have seen ;)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7XaujRxB3rxcGVKQ3R5eWlBWnc

There are some shots:
- overexposure
-underexposure (noise)
-skin tone in mixed light
-resolution in street
same aperture, external light in bright sunlight ,same brightness for all the time on the chart and internally controlled light.
For All tme i change the zoom Zeiss between Dragon to Helium in 30 seconds, so as to ensure the scene , and the same lights. :)
5_zps1hhzztbd.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
 
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Brad Grimm said:
Looks about a stop less in the highlights... We were so busy asking ourselves if we could see into shadows, we forgot about the light:)
Click to expand...

eheheh :)
 
So, on the Helium the highlight clipping goal-posts were on? Or did you check exposure simulation, and it showed red clipping areas?

luigivaltulini said:
just to be clear.
The shots of the chart DSc lab and 3 girls were shot with Dragon sensor before clipping at T16/ 250 iso. So I took the lens with the same aperture T16 and repositioned on Helium.
Obviously Helium having less latitude in the highlights, the results is clipped of the 3 girls in this r3d.
I have not had time to shoot the 3 girls with a more closed aperture for Helium. Sorry.
Click to expand...
 
Did anyone post comparative single frame .r3ds from both sensors? (I can't download 1.9g right now, but itchy to see what's in dem raws.)
 
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Thankyou for uploading the images & footage Luigi.

Its going difficult to choose between Dragon.VV and Helium.8K.

If the new 'central' ISO point has jumped from ISO 800 -> ISO 2000, and the SNR of both is 80dB, I guess October will bring with it a new H colour science with DR increase of 1.3 Stops.

AJ
 
Price aside, 8k VV with 5.5k ~s35 (both with 4k prores/dnx) has much more potential in my opinion... (especially if the sensor performance -- dr, noise, etc. -- is comparable.) I mean 8k s35 just seems like the same storage footprint, but only half the image. Besides, I'm sure there will be another sensor generation or two before 8k displays are in homes (maybe three or four before decent 8k delivery is available).

Let me rephrase: a VV image looks noticeably different* regardless of resolution, but going from s35 4k-6k to 8k is far less dramatic in my opinion (doubly so when it'll likely be viewed at 4k).


*different doesn't necessarily mean better; horses for courses and subjectivity apply... However, I'd rather be able to provide VV AND S35 as options to production (rather than have to convince a producer to use twice the data/dump time/rendertime for 8k acquisition of something that'll likely be finished in 4k anyway).
 
The colour reproduction on Helium is the factor you're missing there - although I agree with your point re: visible differentiation as far as field of view / dof goes.

Helium's colour is a major step forward IMO
 
True, that's why I precursored it with a "if the sensor performance is comparable"... I haven't seen enough of Helium (or its colour science refresh) to know just how much better it is than Dragon... But if the difference is only marginal, I'd probably opt for VV personally.
 
Antony Newman said:
Thankyou for uploading the images & footage Luigi.

Its going difficult to choose between Dragon.VV and Helium.8K.

If the new 'central' ISO point has jumped from ISO 800 -> ISO 2000, and the SNR of both is 80dB, I guess October will bring with it a new H colour science with DR increase of 1.3 Stops.

AJ
Click to expand...

Hm...don't You think that DR increase means SNR increase?
 
John Marchant said:
The colour reproduction on Helium is the factor you're missing there - although I agree with your point re: visible differentiation as far as field of view / dof goes.

Helium's colour is a major step forward IMO
Click to expand...

John are you seeing any DR changes in Helium vs Dragon? Is the native ISO indeed higher?
 
Would be cool if you had an option to debayer and subsample down the 8k to 4k inside of the camera. Then you could film fullframe in both 4 and 8k. I mean 8k down to 4k should be easier to sample down compared to say 7k to 4k.
 
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