DRAGON-or-HELIUM

[JeanChristophe Dupasquier]

Quick question for existing Helium (Stormtrooper) owners: could somebody list all the different possible framerates, resolution and respective crop factor? Very interedted for how it looks at 100-200+ fps

 

[Brody_B]

Lol, looks like I'm picking up a motion mount with my Helium upgrade. But seriously, I do agree with Christopher, I would much rather have to ND in daylight than fight with low light situations. If that actually ends up being the case.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

anyone shot new helium tests against dragon sensor? would love to see for sure

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

if they make Full Frame Lenses that match the S35 lenses then I would think that VV would be a better choice, but then s35 lens would be cheap and lot of indie guys would fall in love with them and...

ATM, S35 lenses are better

 

[sergio arguello]

Shooting hours upon hours of Helium test images, My thinking is resolution now is not even a question. 6k is more than enough for anything we do, Shooting side by side 8k against 6k, the moment the two cameras drifted past 800iso, the Helium pretty much slaughtered the 6k Dragon. Anything under 500iso... its pretty much a equal race when viewing on a 2k or 4k monitor.

With Helium, Colour, smoothness and usable black information is what's going strong for the Helium.
I personally won't be shooting 6k Wepons or Dragons for much longer. The Helium is just to big a leap forward for me to even worry about 6k anymore .This isn't like when MX was replaced by Dragon, which was a minor gain, Helium for me is like when I went from 2k to 4k.

MY QUESTION: why if this sensor is as great as you say, and you do make it sound like an advert. Why is there so minimal testing going on, as per usual< with these sensor releases? lets see what it is and what its latitudes are in the real world. You say you have shot a ton and the work you do is beautiful, then why no posts, R3ds to share?

 

[sergio arguello]

Dramatic difference.
http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/JUNK/noise.jpg

not trying to be an drag but from this i am too believe that at 2000asa i see less exposure in the background? and i see more exposure at 1600asa on dragon meanwhile lighting on subjects face looks about the same in exposure?

 

[scott devitte]

anyone shot new helium tests against dragon sensor? would love to see for sure

ECLAIR (East Coast Lens Analysis Involving Redusers)

Keep an eye out for when Nick Morrison posts results of our lens tests Saturday past. We did some testing of my Helium, Dan Kanes Weapon and Nick's Dragon.

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

not trying to be an drag but from this i am too believe that at 2000asa i see less exposure in the background? and i see more exposure at 1600asa on dragon meanwhile lighting on subjects face looks about the same in exposure?

According to Jared, everything that Helium is doing these days DR and color-wise, is more or less accidental. Since most, if not all, of these Helium folks are processing their footage with Dragon color science, not Heliun color science, the results are wildly unpredictable, and an inaccurate depiction of the cameras potential. On Oct 11th, HeliumColor will be released and then it'll be safe to make an assessment.

 

[sergio arguello]

According to Jared, everything that Helium is doing these days DR and color-wise, is more or less accidental. Since most, if not all, of these Helium folks are processing their footage with Dragon color science, not Heliun color science, the results are wildly unpredictable, and an inaccurate depiction of the cameras potential. On Oct 11th, HeliumColor will be released and then it'll be safe to make an assessment.

thats all well and good, but Jared is the president of RED and RED sells cameras, I would love to see outside testing or footage to determine what this sensor is all about. The science behind it defies it being a great concept, meaning, when you put 8K worth of photosites into a smaller sensor i.e...S35 something has to give either DR or additional noise in the blacks or both!. Now if this is the technology that defies that I personally haven't been privy to anything that proves that in anyway. I have seen a shoot done about boxing and unfortunately it was compressed online so no way to determine its quality, and thats with the understanding that it went through a post production that may have thrown a gang of noise reduction behind it...all I'm saying is lets see some real tests and or footage before customers are asked to drop more loot into something fairly unknown.

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

thats all well and good, but Jared is the president of RED and RED sells cameras, I would love to see outside testing or footage to determine what this sensor is all about. The science behind it defies it being a great concept, meaning, when you put 8K worth of photosites into a smaller sensor i.e...S35 something has to give either DR or additional noise in the blacks or both!. Now if this is the technology that defies that I personally haven't been privy to anything that proves that in anyway. I have seen a shoot done about boxing and unfortunately it was compressed online so no way to determine its quality, and thats with the understanding that it went through a post production that may have thrown a gang of noise reduction behind it...all I'm saying is lets see some real tests and or footage before customers are asked to drop more loot into something fairly unknown.

How is a third party suppose to review the sensor before the camera is released to third parties? The camera is currently unreleased and in late stages of a closed beta testing. On OCT 11th, when the camera is released to the world, you will be sure to find plenty of tests on the internet. Until then, why are you making judgements on an unreleased camera?


And I get the suspicion, as smaller pixels usually hurts sensitivity, but Jim has long said that it's really about making better pixels, not bigger pixels. So I wouldn't be too shocked if RED actually had something to back up the claims of clean 3200 ISO sensitivity.


Also, no one is forcing you to buy a new camera sight unseen. You could wait till OCT 12th when third party tests are undoubtably released and decide yourself.

 

[sergio arguello]

its neither here nor there if i decide to buy a camera or several. As a longtime owner and working DP i have every right to ask questions about proposed equipment! Unlike yourself that is willing to swallow anything your told, And yes i could wait or not buy at all. what you don't
understand is i am involved in the decisions made by the largest camera house in argentina. So we probably have a larger vested interest that you do.

 

[Sabovic Adis]

How is a third party suppose to review the sensor before the camera is released to third parties? The camera is currently unreleased and in late stages of a closed beta testing. On OCT 11th, when the camera is released to the world, you will be sure to find plenty of tests on the internet. Until then, why are you making judgements on an unreleased camera?


And I get the suspicion, as smaller pixels usually hurts sensitivity, but Jim has long said that it's really about making better pixels, not bigger pixels. So I wouldn't be too shocked if RED actually had something to back up the claims of clean 3200 ISO sensitivity.


Also, no one is forcing you to buy a new camera sight unseen. You could wait till OCT 12th when third party tests are undoubtably released and decide yourself.

And those r3d files? Unreleased? The post I'm quoting here also unreleased? If yes, then, I guess, my post is unreleased as well. :cornut:

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

its neither here nor there if i decide to buy a camera or several. As a longtime owner and working DP i have every right to ask questions about proposed equipment! Unlike yourself that is willing to swallow anything your told, And yes i could wait or not buy at all. what you don't
understand is i am involved in the decisions made by the largest camera house in argentina. So we probably have a larger vested interest that you do.

You have absolutely every right to ask questions hahaha. All I'm saying is that you cant expect a perfectly accurate answer because too many variables are still up in the air, so it's kind of a waste of breath no? It's like trying to judge the quality of a finished film, by watching the picture lock. You can probably get pretty close, but without the locked sound and color you're not going to get the entire picture. So why judge a camera by it's equivalent of a picture lock?

Also, I quoted myself below and emphasised a few phrases. If you take a better look at them, you'll see that I'm not just swallowing what I'm told. Instead, I'm saying you should be patient and wait until the camera is finished and released before you draw any conclusions, if objectively perfect testing is your goal.

But if you really work for the largest camera house in Argentina then it doesn't really matter what the true performance will be. It's the latest RED camera. It sells itself. I would think the question should be how many cameras can you afford to buy, not if the new RED camera will be something people are interested in. Right?

How is a third party suppose to review the sensor before the camera is released to third parties? The camera is currently unreleased and in late stages of a closed beta testing. On OCT 11th, when the camera is released to the world, you will be sure to find plenty of tests on the internet. Until then, why are you making judgements on an unreleased camera?


And I get the suspicion, as smaller pixels usually hurts sensitivity, but Jim has long said that it's really about making better pixels, not bigger pixels. So I wouldn't be too shocked if RED actually had something to back up the claims of clean 3200 ISO sensitivity.


Also, no one is forcing you to buy a new camera sight unseen. You could wait till OCT 12th when third party tests are undoubtedly released and decide yourself.

 

[sergio arguello]

You have absolutely every right to ask questions hahaha. All I'm saying is that you cant expect a perfectly accurate answer because too many variables are still up in the air, so it's kind of a waste of breath no? It's like trying to judge the quality of a finished film, by watching the picture lock. You can probably get pretty close, but without the locked sound and color you're not going to get the entire picture. So why judge a camera by it's equivalent of a picture lock? [SIZE=2[COLOR="#FF0000"]]Well to address each point one by one. Im sure you read the thread and realize that my point was first addressed to Mark T who as he stated has already shot a ton of HELIUM so this point you made id dead!![/SIZE][/COLOR]

Also, I quoted myself below and emphasised a few phrases. If you take a better look at them, you'll see that I'm not just swallowing what I'm told. Instead, I'm saying you should be patient and wait until the camera is finished and released before you draw any conclusions, if objectively perfect testing is your goal. SEE ABOVE RESPONSE

But if you really work for the largest camera house in Argentina then it doesn't really matter what the true performance will be. It's the latest RED camera. It sells itself. I would think the question should be how many cameras can you afford to buy, not if the new RED camera will be something people are interested in. Right?

Im sorry but your wrong about RED cameras sell themselves. Simply not true!! Alexa sells itself. Unfortunately, or fortunately thats how it is, but thats kinda what happens when the owner/user saturates any market.

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

And those r3d files? Unreleased? The post I'm quoting here also unreleased? If yes, then, I guess, my post is unreleased as well. :cornut:

I hope this is just a language barrier thing here.

When I use the word unreleased, what I was referring to was the camera, not an individual file from the camera. I emphasised my original quote again so you can see.

It doesn't matter how many R3D's get released. Until on OCT 11th, when RED says, we are ready to release this camera to the world. Only then, will the camera be released.

How is a third party suppose to review the sensor before the camera is released to third parties? The camera is currently unreleased and in late stages of a closed beta testing. On OCT 11th, when the camera is released to the world, you will be sure to find plenty of tests on the internet. Until then, why are you making judgements on an unreleased camera?


And I get the suspicion, as smaller pixels usually hurts sensitivity, but Jim has long said that it's really about making better pixels, not bigger pixels. So I wouldn't be too shocked if RED actually had something to back up the claims of clean 3200 ISO sensitivity.


Also, no one is forcing you to buy a new camera sight unseen. You could wait till OCT 12th when third party tests are undoubtably released and decide yourself.

And those r3d files? Unreleased? The post I'm quoting here also unreleased? If yes, then, I guess, my post is unreleased as well. :cornut:

And if we were to really follow this logic then this camera was released like a year or two ago (or maybe even longer), when the first person who didn't work for RED was told about it. Should we judge it's performance by what it could do on that date? Or should we instead go by Oct 11th? The date the manufacturer says that the product is done?

The whole point I'm trying to get across is that if you judge a product by an early version of the product, you aren't going to get the full picture. It's not rocket science. But, if you work for a giant rental house and your business model demands that you make a decision before Oct 11th, then, make the most educated decision you can, but know that you wont be able to make a 100% accurate deduction of the product's abilities. Welcome to the dangers of doing business in a competitive marketplace.

Now here is a series of question you can ponder over in the meantime that I think will positively effect your business model. Do you think Chris Probst is perfectly aware of the capabilities of this new camera? Or at least enough so to make a more than educated guess? And do you think that is massively beneficial to his business model? And finally, the big one, why do you think he has that advantage over others?

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

You have absolutely every right to ask questions hahaha. All I'm saying is that you cant expect a perfectly accurate answer because too many variables are still up in the air, so it's kind of a waste of breath no? It's like trying to judge the quality of a finished film, by watching the picture lock. You can probably get pretty close, but without the locked sound and color you're not going to get the entire picture. So why judge a camera by it's equivalent of a picture lock? [SIZE=2[COLOR=#FF0000]]Well to address each point one by one. Im sure you read the thread and realize that my point was first addressed to Mark T who as he stated has already shot a ton of HELIUM so this point you made id dead!![/SIZE][/COLOR]

Also, I quoted myself below and emphasised a few phrases. If you take a better look at them, you'll see that I'm not just swallowing what I'm told. Instead, I'm saying you should be patient and wait until the camera is finished and released before you draw any conclusions, if objectively perfect testing is your goal. SEE ABOVE RESPONSE

But if you really work for the largest camera house in Argentina then it doesn't really matter what the true performance will be. It's the latest RED camera. It sells itself. I would think the question should be how many cameras can you afford to buy, not if the new RED camera will be something people are interested in. Right?

I don't know how to make it any clearer. The people who currently have HELIUM's in their hands, whether they paid 50K or Jarred gave them his personal camera, are BETA CAMERAS (Remember the picture lock metaphor). Until HeliumColor is released, these cameras are not release level cameras. So it doesn't matter how much footage some guy shot, because he's not processing his image with HeliumColor. So, if you draw conclusions from these tests, it MAY OR MAY NOT, mislead you.

Im sorry but your wrong about RED cameras sell themselves. Simply not true!! Alexa sells itself. Unfortunately, or fortunately thats how it is, but thats kinda what happens when the owner/user saturates any market.

And as far as this statement goes, its entirely dependent on the market so maybe my market is just totally different than yours. I work in the micro budget indie feature world and also do some low budget music video stuff on the side, and in this world the price/performance of RED dominates the marketplace. If I had an ALEXA, and charged my clients the same price for it, none of them would complain, until they were asked to do a 4k master that is. Of course, if you are regularly renting out to major productions, who usually demand ALEXA, then its a no brainer. But again, if you are working in a huge rental house then you should probably be asking your clients what they want. Not for RED to release the camera earlier then they want lol.

 

[Sabovic Adis]

I hope this is just a language barrier thing here.

When I use the word unreleased, what I was referring to was the camera, not an individual file from the camera. I emphasised my original quote again so you can see.

It doesn't matter how many R3D's get released. Until on OCT 11th, when RED says, we are ready to release this camera to the world. Only then, will the camera be released.





And if we were to really follow this logic then this camera was released like a year or two ago (or maybe even longer), when the first person who didn't work for RED was told about it. Should we judge it's performance by what it could do on that date? Or should we instead go by Oct 11th? The date the manufacturer says that the product is done?

The whole point I'm trying to get across is that if you judge a product by an early version of the product, you aren't going to get the full picture. It's not rocket science. But, if you work for a giant rental house and your business model demands that you make a decision before Oct 11th, then, make the most educated decision you can, but know that you wont be able to make a 100% accurate deduction of the product's abilities. Welcome to the dangers of doing business in a competitive marketplace.

Now here is a series of question you can ponder over in the meantime that I think will positively effect your business model. Do you think Chris Probst is perfectly aware of the capabilities of this new camera? Or at least enough so to make a more than educated guess? And do you think that is massively beneficial to his business model? And finally, the big one, why do you think he has that advantage over others?

What version of the product? There either is a Helium camera or there is not. What versions are we talking about - Helium 1.1, 1.2, 1.2.8?! And what full picture, dude? 8K? 6K? :rofl:

:thumbsup:

 

[Brody_B]

Marcus, Just curious. have you looked at these?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/o0xkjzvi3...1XlqQljAa?dl=0

By Erich Roland

 

[sergio arguello]

lets not be too hard on Marcus he joined up 2 years ago and is probably in that RED fanboy stage where the cameras are the end all...seems we have a friend in common Marcus, Rana Glickman so for that ill let this all be what it is...
Do you even know Chris? seeing that i do, and im sure he doesnt want to be pulled into your argument

 

[Dana Rice]

Is there a chart anywhere that tells record times in 8K? I noticed the calculator on Red's site doesn't have an 8K option yet