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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DRAGON-or-HELIUM

Shooting hours upon hours of Helium test images, My thinking is resolution now is not even a question. 6k is more than enough for anything we do, Shooting side by side 8k against 6k, the moment the two cameras drifted past 800iso, the Helium pretty much slaughtered the 6k Dragon. Anything under 500iso... its pretty much a equal race when viewing on a 2k or 4k monitor.

With Helium, Colour, smoothness and usable black information is what's going strong for the Helium.
I personally won't be shooting 6k Wepons or Dragons for much longer. The Helium is just to big a leap forward for me to even worry about 6k anymore .This isn't like when MX was replaced by Dragon, which was a minor gain, Helium for me is like when I went from 2k to 4k.
 
so if there's say 1 stop less dynamic range on helium vs dragon, but the blacks are way cleaner, couldn't you say that in effect the dynamic range is the same (or better) since those lower stops are actually usable?
 
"Dragon's larger pixel pitch means that aesthetics and lens character for a given res (and hence frame rate) are better."

Jon can you elaborate on your statement?
 
Here's a few interesting things to try.

Meter and expose Dragon at ISO 800 for the Skin Tone - Highlight OLPF, ISO 1000 for the Standard OLPF, ISO 1280 for the Low Light Optimized OLPF.

Meter and expose Helium at ISO 1280 for the Skin Tone - Highlight OLPF, ISO 1600 for the Standard OLPF, ISO 2000 for the Low Light Optimized OLPF.

You know. Just for kicks :)


I wish I was in town to do some thorough testing for y'all. Might have an opportunity to shoot some tests here on location actually with both bodies while there's a Helium nearby. But the shoot comes first in this case and I am far away from my laboratory.

There are interesting differences between Dragon and Helium. Much of it is Color related, with Helium having a different and perhaps more natural color rendering to real life (I so need to test this). Dynamic Range is different. Noise Character is different as well as Noise Floor. Some of these things people have been asking for, so there is a lot to be excited about. There's a bit more information coming soon I imagine. October is near and that's likely when more is revealed.

One thing I will reiterate, especially for us concerned with 8K filming. Much of the decision between Dragon 8K VV and Helium 8K S35 comes down to format size and perhaps the "style" of the images you'd like to capture even.

And one more thing I will reiterate. With Dragon and Helium, especially in DSMC2 bodies, you're dealing with two of the current leading sensor technologies. This produces tough decisions in some directions. Consider if you have a glass investment or an attraction to a certain format size as well. This can help guide you in some ways. But also look closely at the sample images and .R3Ds floating around. They hold the other key to your decision making.
 
Dramatic difference.
http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/JUNK/noise.jpg

noise.jpg
 
Jake Wilganowski said:
"Dragon's larger pixel pitch means that aesthetics and lens character for a given res (and hence frame rate) are better."

Jon can you elaborate on your statement?
Click to expand...

If you want to shoot a 4K crop to hit a particular frame rate, the image circle and all associated factors is quite different between Dragon and Helium.

not a deal breaker, but a point to consider.
 
Nick Morrison said:
Mark is that Epic Dragon, or Weapon Dragon?
Click to expand...

EPIC DRAGON.. The weapon 6k is not much difference, Slightly better by a half stop. Nothing like what the Helium is dishing out.

Both Cameras had the LOW LIGHT in them.
 
Mark Toia said:
EPIC DRAGON.. The weapon 6k is not much difference, Slightly better by a half stop. Nothing like what the Helium is dishing out.

Both Cameras had the LOW LIGHT in them.
Click to expand...
Thanks for this, Mark. What ISO on Epic Dragon is as clean as that ISO 2000 Weapon Helium shot?

Edit: I now see you were using two different lenses... hmm, I can't get hyped up just yet. That's another variable in the test.
 
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Mark Toia said:
EPIC DRAGON.. The weapon 6k is not much difference, Slightly better by a half stop. Nothing like what the Helium is dishing out.

Both Cameras had the LOW LIGHT in them.
Click to expand...

MArk sorry but noo. Epic Dragon at 800 iso is the same Weapon Dragon at 2000 iso...is a big difference and the color and slightly better on Weapon.
However, I have no problems with the shot noise always 250 to 500 iso
I see now Dragon at the same iris, 250 ISO or 500 ISO vs Helium, Dragon is best for dynamic range and highlights.
But contrary Helium is a more light-sensitive sensor vs Dragon, so less noisy above 2000 iso ..
Obviously the color is still in beta,and obviously Helium and best resolution.
 
luigivaltulini said:
MArk sorry but noo. Epic Dragon at 800 iso is the same Weapon Dragon at 2000 iso...is a big difference and the color and slightly better on Weapon.
However, I have no problems with the shot noise always 250 to 500 iso
I see now Dragon at the same iris, 250 ISO or 500 ISO vs Helium, Dragon is best for dynamic range and highlights.
But contrary Helium is a more light-sensitive sensor vs Dragon, so less noisy above 2000 iso ..
Obviously the color is still in beta,and obviously Helium and best resolution.
Click to expand...

The Reason why I didnt go to Weapon Dragon was because our tests didnt really see a great difference... not like what your seeing. Everyone tests differently :) All cool to have a point of difference.
 
Mark Toia said:
The Reason why I didnt go to Weapon Dragon was because our tests didnt really see a great difference... not like what your seeing. Everyone tests differently :) All cool to have a point of difference.
Click to expand...
MArk course, everyone has their own method of testing.:)
Below same opening, for me Dragon Dmsc2 is very close to Helium and whether to use A.d.d is more clean.
Untitled-1_zpsuqcy8qra.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
 
Sergio Perez said:
So Mark, from your testing, with LLO, we gain a stop from our Epic Dragon LLO?
Click to expand...

Sorry, The JPG you uploaded isn't very high res, So I cannot really see the detail in the shot at 8k / 6k Resoltion.
Could you send me a R3D from both Helium and the 6k Weapon.
Cheers.
Mark
 
Even when you shoot Helium with the "dragon" color science you still will end up with more dynamic range, it is just shifted from the left to the right. You can easily correct for this by just shooting at a higher ISO as that will compensate for the shift since the shadows on Helium are so much better.
 
Jarred Land said:
Even when you shoot Helium with the "dragon" color science you still will end up with more dynamic range, it is just shifted from the left to the right. You can easily correct for this by just shooting at a higher ISO as that will compensate for the shift since the shadows on Helium are so much better.
Click to expand...

So true. That's why comparisons are so hard. Most tend to keep the settings the same across the board. In most cases this doesn't get the most out of one of the cameras.
 
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Jarred Land said:
Even when you shoot Helium with the "dragon" color science you still will end up with more dynamic range, it is just shifted from the left to the right. You can easily correct for this by just shooting at a higher ISO as that will compensate for the shift since the shadows on Helium are so much better.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. What might that base ISO be?
 
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