Dragon Lens Coverage Information

[Will Keir]

Jarred,

What are you shooting at T32!!!

here is a Dragon with a dirty sensor and the Leica 25mm at 6K WS at about T32

 

[Will Keir]

Phil,

I know I seem a bit demanding, just excited like you guys are.

Do you have any screen grabs of the vignetting you could share with us?

Thanks again for all the hard work.

Usable at 6K with slight vignette " the translation is such. Phil isn't technically wrong.. he is being super clinical ( as he should be).

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

Quick thing to keep in mine, for the immediate future when it comes to motion pictures we'll be creating a 4K master for a 4K delivery. That's going on industry wide at this point.

Yes-ish - although we should ideally be shooting with an eye to the future, as Jim would doubtless point out, with his tireless and true denunciation '1080P is not enough'.


Let me digress a little.


We master and deliver for the immediate future.


We buy cameras for the immediate future.


We buy glass for the coming *decades*.


Digital cameras come and go in a relative eye blink. Footage… gets stale. Yes, shoot for the future - but how much of it will really end up remastered for some higher resolution than 4K? Much is relatively ephemeral.


But good glass can and should last the best part of a *career*.


These tests - and thanks for them! - represent one facet of the now. What's the bets on where sensor size is going? Will we step back, in a sense, and be shooting on, say, 8K sensors that are standard S35 in a very few years? Is the size of the Dragon a temporary excursion, an aberration? Or are we headed inexorably towards FF35, or something not far short of it, being the new standard?


Leica took a view on this when they designed Summilux-C and decided NOT to make them cover FF35.


Just some points to ponder


For the now, I'd like to know how far the Master Zoom will cover on Dragon!


Mike

 

[PatrickFaith]

Hey Phil, awesome job ... much thanks, especially for running the lens discussion gauntlet! My question is on my RPP, I have given up using my 18mm rpp on the dragon, but I was hoping to use my 35. In your notes you say the 35 is clean at 5.5k but only covers 6k on close focus. I was wondering if the 35mm RPP would be usable at 6k wide screen(I wouldn't mind having a small lens correction node in nuke if there was a slight vignetting)?

[ my problem being that my 50mm rpp will effectively 46mm at 6k and the 35mm will be effectively 38mm @5.5k, and having a 38mm & 46mm ( 8mm effective difference) is just to small of a range as a tool. ]

---
or is the 50 mm effectively 46 mm at 6k and the 35 is basically 35 at 5.5k (that will still be a 10mm effective difference).

 

[Florian Stadler]

Aha, Phil's ploy to move up the que...

 

[Asif Limbada]

Expanded notes on Master Primes...??

 

[Phil Holland]

Done with my fish and chips.

Just some points to ponder

Interesting points Mike and I agree for the most part. I am very, very much on Jim's and Red's side when it comes to 1080p not being "enough". Anybody who works with Super 35mm at a feature level should acknowledge the reasons why. Luckily at this point the 4K concept is sort of a given if you look at the motion picture landscape unfolding before our eyes. It does somewhat sadden me looking back at those who were so aggressively against 4K not too long ago. Such silliness really.

One of the things I think Red needs to be commended on with Dragon is just how much they listened to industry leading DPs as well as the little guys. We now have 5K resolution within the S35 frame. We have more resolution in the full Mysterium-X frame with 5.5K. And 6K is going to provide that extra sensor size for those who enjoy that larger format. And that's the word right there. Red Dragon is a multi-format system. And in my mind, at least from my perspective of how film has been digitized on major motion pictures and where my career began, Dragon is the first true new system that can fully replace film. Mysterium-X had the resolution down. Dragon's got the resolution and dynamic range as well as the relevance of resolution per format size. This to me was a smart move. And I know I'm not the only one who thinks that.

My two favorite formats have been S35 and VistaVision. S35 isn't going anywhere as a format, it's too good. Red paved new ground with Mysterium-X's larger sensor. Dragon is doing much the same. In fact it's a similar level of chaos if my memory serves correct. But image makers have been asking for it. Red's bringing it to market. You have to respect that.

My question is on my RPP, I have given up using my 18mm rpp on the dragon, but I was hoping to use my 35. In your notes you say the 35 is clean at 5.5k but only covers 6k on close focus. I was wondering if the 35mm RPP would be usable at 6k wide screen(I wouldn't mind having a small lens correction node in nuke if there was a slight vignetting)?

[ my problem being that my 50mm rpp will effectively 46mm at 6k and the 35mm will be effectively 38mm @5.5k, and having a 38mm & 46mm ( 8mm effective difference) is just to small of a range as a tool. ]

or is the 50 mm effectively 46 mm at 6k and the 35 is basically 35 at 5.5k (that will still be a 10mm effective difference).

Personally I wouldn't get rid of any of those lenses. The Red Pro Prime 35mm performs similarly at 6K WS, which is basically covering within close focus. However, remember the RPP 18 and 35mm are entirely usable with 5.5K. This is going to be important for a lot of folks to look at especially when capturing and finishing for 16x9 displays.

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

We now have 5K resolution within the S35 frame. We have more resolution in the full Mysterium-X frame with 5.5K. And 6K is going to provide that extra sensor size for those who enjoy that larger format. And that's the word right there. Red Dragon is a multi-format system.

DING!

For me, the big things with Dragon are (in approximate priority):

1. Better low light / noise floor (that's *massive* for me, shooting by available light, often at night)
2. 5K in S35 (for cropping, reframing, and/or 4K finish) with ALL S35 glass.
3. Enhanced DR
4. 6K stills potential.

I *really* look forward to the day when this kind of thread is largely irrelevant. True multi-format.

'Does it vignette at 6K?'. Who cares? It shoots 12K FF35, which is enough for anyone who doesn't need a view camera. It shoots 8K at S35, with every lens ever built for that format, which is enough for everything presently conceivable, and it shoots 4K at S16 - so dust off the best of that old glass.

THAT is where I want to be.

Jim, please take us there. Soon.

Mike

 

[Christopher Probst]

Let's not forget the drop in a crop factor and increased resolution for anamorphic support!

6K ANA for a 2:1 squeeze anamorphic mode is around 3792 (18.96mm) x 3160 (15.8mm). Here, with anamorphics, the driving crop factor is no longer the width, but the shorter height of the sensors.

The Dragon sensor at 15.8mm tall is up from the 14.58mm of the MX chip. That means the crop factor on anamorphic lenses on Epics with Dragons in them will go from 1.22 down to 1.1266... This is another massive plus for the Dragon.

I remember shooting anamorphic on Red Ones... The R1 has a 1.424 crop factor with its 12.5mm tall sensor.... That meant a 50mm anamorphic prime had the effective field of view of a 71mm! It got better on Epic, a 50mm looked like a 61mm. Now with Dragon, that 50mm will give us a 56mm equivalent.

This matters MUCH more with wide angles. On a R1, trying to get a wide shot was a nightmare. On my Black Eyed Peas shoot, our widest Kowa lens was a 40mm. We shot ImmaBe/Rock That Body on Red Ones which made our widest lens about 57mm; basically like a 28mm in spherical terms.

Is it any wonder my first chance to shoot Dragon was in 6K ANA?

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Thank you Phil for taking the time and effort! The expanded notes really help !

Really appreciate all your extensive work and openness ! Thank you!

hehehe I just corrected" expensive" work... Auto correct seems to have noted the lenses which were tested

 

[TD Wood]

Many thanks, Phil!!!

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Do you have any screen grabs of the vignetting you could share with us?

I was wondering the same thing, but this would be excessive. You would need an App of some sorts that would let you dial in each screen for each lens on every aperture and every resolution shot and compare them side by side. I guess there's quite some footage of white screens behind the doors and I'm pretty sure it's too much to share.

BTW, Phil did you actually dial in the different resolutions or did you calculate these from 6K FF shots?

 

[Phil Holland]

BTW, Phil did you actually dial in the different resolutions or did you calculate these from 6K FF shots?

Dialed in and even used frame overlay to look harder. Pushed up the ISO a good amount to see information on light fall off and field illumination. Occasionally pointed into darkness/contrast and at details to make some notes on a few other things outside of coverage.

 

[David (dudi) Namir]

Phil, thanks for all that and for answering tons of questions on this post.
Just wonder about my Leica Van Diemen rehoused. these were originally Leica stills lenses, I think the R series, I always tend to forget, and they still provide a beautiful image. We use them a lot for table top on the Phantom Flex (25.6 mm x 16.0 mm sensor size) and recently we shot a Sprite commercial with them.
Anyone has an idea how they will work on the Dragon?

 

[Nick Morrison]

Phil, thanks for all that and for answering tons of questions on this post.
Just wonder about my Leica Van Diemen rehoused. these were originally Leica stills lenses, I think the R series, I always tend to forget, and they still provide a beautiful image. We use them a lot for table top on the Phantom Flex (25.6 mm x 16.0 mm sensor size) and recently we shot a Sprite commercial with them.
Anyone has an idea how they will work on the Dragon?

They should cover Dragon completely, as they are FULL FRAME.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Let's assemble a comprehensive list. Were you planning to do that Phil? I will have coverage info on Master Prime 12m, 14mm and 16mm shortly, as well as Zeiss 70-200 PL zoom. I also have a Leica M mount and Notci 50mm I can test. I assume there are no issues putting Leica M mount on Dragon?

I really need coverage info for Optimo zooms.

 

[vincent kardasik]

Okay. Back home at the ranch now and I can answer several questions.


On FF35 still glass - Like it says in the first post, anything designed for that format will cover Epic Dragon at 6K no problem. Leica Rs, Canon EF, Nikons, Olympus, etc....

On the Tokina/Duclos 11-16mm - Now that's worth testing out. I have a stock Tokina and it does indeed cover FF35 at 16mm. I'll add that to the list of zooms to test. The Ruby 14-24mm should be tossed in too even though it should cover 6K Full. Maybe something happens in the conversion process that might change this. I'll take a look.

On Cooke 5/i Primes - We just weren't able to get a set of those on this particular day of testing. Those, the Kowas, K35s, vintage primes, etc... There's certainly more to test.

On Cooks Mini S4 Primes - Also didn't have these for this particular set. There was a brief moment at Duclos Lenses where Matthew had these months ago and he mentioned that they had very impressive coverage. We'll have to look at those for sure.

On Zoom Tests - The plan is to test zooms next.

On the accuracy of the Leica Summilux-C numbers - Yes. This is the correct information. There was no tequila involved during the test and there were other eyes around who verified these findings. It both reflects my individual measurements made a bit ago and also what visible coverage on Dragon represents. Most of these sets have been tested twice for coverage in reality. I am not error.

Phil, will you be able to test Red Zooms, 17-50mm and 50-150mm?
Massive thanks for your time and these tests!

 

[Phil Holland]

Let's assemble a comprehensive list. Were you planning to do that Phil? I will have coverage info on Master Prime 12m, 14mm and 16mm shortly, as well as Zeiss 70-200 PL zoom. I also have a Leica M mount and Notci 50mm I can test. I assume there are no issues putting Leica M mount on Dragon?

I really need coverage info for Optimo zooms.

Yep. We're making a big list that will be accessible for everybody everywhere. We just knocked out the most used and common stuff first. More primes certainly to come as well as zooms.

The Zeiss CZ 70-200 T2.9 covers Dragon at 6K without breaking a sweat. The 28-80 CZ T2.9 does as well. The upcoming ultra wide CZ zoom will cover too.

The Leica M Noctilux 50mm will also cover Dragon at 6K. I don't know if it still rings true for Dragon, but there is a certain issue about the rear element of certain wide M mount lenses protruding too far back into the camera too far that may damage the lens or camera itself. This may or may not be resolved. I'll ask. It'd still refrain from going too wide with M mounts due to their optical design.

Optimos are high up on the list to test out. I have rough numbers, but it is much better to put the lenses on Dragon to find out format coverage.

 

[Asif Limbada]

As of now Ultra Primes and Master Primes (that were meant for S35) cover almost everything without any "vignettes", till 24mm and 25mm respectively.

And Leica's vignettes at 40mm as well...

The above is something I really can't believe, hence I want to see if you have "Expanded Notes" on Master and Ultra Primes.

I think its more to do with the lens characteristic than anything else. I would be doing my tests soon. But to me its simple it covers 6K and just vignettes slightly (not be mixed with coverage, its lens characteristics)

 

[Jannard]

I stand by my post that the Leicas are my pick as the best lens set for Dragon. While there is some slight vignetting (there is some on most lenses), the combination of resolution and color... coupled with size and speed make these my 1st choice. Center and edge resolution isn't matched by any lens I have tested for any given focal length. If the vignetting on these Leicas bothers you... my bet is that you haven't taken a close look at your favorite lenses. Even full frame Canon and Nikon lenses vignette to some degree.

Having said that... there are a TON of great lens options for Dragon, including many lenses outside "normal" focal lengths. I have a 200mm f2.0 Nikon lens that I love. The 300mm RPP is awesome. I'm quite sure the Ultra Primes will get a ton of Dragon use. Anything you currently own will work.

Jim