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Dragon Lens Coverage Information

Phil Holland

Phil Holland

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Hello all,

Mid-July 2013 we set out to discover and learn about how lenses would cover the new Red Dragon sensor. We tested out the most commonly owned, most popular to rent, and most used focal lengths on used on all types of productions.

phfx_redDragonJuly2013LensCoverage_0000.jpg


Below you can find links to images summarizing the general coverage notes for each set.

Super 35mm Cinema Glass Dragon Coverage:


Expanded notes on the Leica Sumilux-C Primes:

18mm - 6K Wide Open usable w/ vignette until T5.6.
21mm - 6K Wide Open usable w/ vignette until T5.6.
25mm - Uneven corner illumination at 6K wide open.
35mm - 6K usable Wide Open but vignettes
40mm - 6K usable Wide Open but vignettes
50mm - Covers 6K, vignettes when iris at T22 and focused past 9 feet.
75mm - Covers all Epic Dragon Formats
100mm - Covers all Epic Dragon Formats

What can be discerned from this? In one way or another they are usable wide open until about T4 on Dragon at 6K and 6K WS. However, the initial graphics involve "clean coverage". This is why Jim is right and the numbers are right. It is a very noticeable vignette roll off however. T1.4-T2.8 and up until T4 you may find success and lovely images.


Leica Summicron-C Primes
All lenses cover Dragon 6K FF cleanly.


Cooke 5/i Primes
18mm - 6K, 2:1, WS uneven field illumination and vignette. 6K HD covers.
25mm - 6K, 2:1, WS uneven field illumination and vignette. 6K HD covers.
32mm - 6K FF covers
40mm - 6K FF covers
50mm - 6K FF covers
65mm - 6K FF covers
75mm - 6K FF covers
100mm - 6K FF covers


Cooke Mini S4i

18mm - Covers 6k 2:1 / HD / 2.4:1 - 6k FF OK above F4 - a small hard vignette at the corner below f5.6 @ MOD, f8 @ infinity
25mm - Covers 6k 2:1 / HD / 2.4:1 - 6k FF OK above F5.6 - a tiny hard vignette at the very corner below f8, only @ infinity
32mm - Covers 6k FF
50mm - Covers 6k FF
75mm - Covers 6k FF
100mm - Covers 6k FF

Dedicated Full Frame 35mm coverage lenses:

  • Zeiss CP.2 Primes - All lenses cover Dragon 6K, except for the 18mm. That does cover 5.5K however.
  • Zeiss CP.2 Super speed Primes - Covers all Epic Dragon formats.
  • Schneider Xenon-FF Primes - Covers all Epic Dragon formats.
  • Canon CN-E Primes - Covers all Epic Dragon formats.
  • Leica M Primes - All Cover Dragon. Optically speaking Summilux-M 24mm and longer look great!


Zoom Lens Coverage!

** UVI stands for Uneven Vignette Illumination. The "highlight glow" that sometimes contaminates the expected roll-off to darkness a Vignette produces. Sometimes extremely noticeable on zoom pulls and iris pulls.

** Worsening Vignette is described as an inconsistent Vignette during a zoom pull.

------------------------------------------------

Red Pro Zoom 18-85mm T2.9
@32mm 6K FF vignette, clear at 40mm
@25mm covers 6K WS
@22mm covers 6K HD

------------------------------------------------

Canon CN-E 14.5-60mm T2.6
 @14.5 - covers 5K clean, hard vignette porthole at higher resolutions
@35 - covers 6K FF with UVI
@60 - clean

------------------------------------------------

Canon CN-E 15.5-47 T2.8
@15.5 - 6K HD covers with vignette
** be cautious of UVI during zoom pull and stopped down
@30 - Covers 6K FF with soft vignette

------------------------------------------------

Canon CN-E 30-105 T2.8
@30 - Covers 6K HD nicely. 6K FF wide open pretty good, stopped down port hole
@75 - Covers 6K cleanly

------------------------------------------------

Canon 30-300mm T2.95-3.7
@30 - Portholes 6K - 5.5K WS soft vignette
@85 - vignettes, but covers 6K FF
@300 - Clean 6K FF

------------------------------------------------

Angenieux Optimo 19.5-94mm T2.6
@19.5 - Portholes at 6K FF, 6K WS slightly but covers 6K HD with vignette
@30 - soft vignette at 6K FF
@94 - Clean 6K FF

------------------------------------------------

Angenieux Optimo DP 16-42mm T2.8
@16 - 6K FF Porthole, 6K HD w/ soft vignette
@19 - 6K FF covers w/ slight vignette
** really doesn't work with the Motion Mount!

------------------------------------------------

Angenieux Optimo DP 30-80mm T2.8
@30 - 6K FF Porthole, 6K HD covers with slight vignette
@65 - vignette 6K FF worsens
** be cautious of ring type UVIs
** really doesn't work with the Motion Mount!

------------------------------------------------

Angenieux Optimo 15-40mm T2.6
@16 - porthole 6K FF and 6K WS, 6K HD vignettes. Better use at 5.5K
18 - 6K FF covers with vignette.
** exhibits similar vignette worsening as DPs

------------------------------------------------

Angenieux Optimo 28-76 T2.6
@28 - 6K WS covers cleaning, porthole at 6K FF
@32 - 6K FF covers
** exhibits similar vignette worsening as DPs

------------------------------------------------

Angenieux 45-120mm T2.8
- Covers 6K HD

------------------------------------------------

Angenieux Optimo 24-290 T2.8
@24 - No way sees front mask
@75 - Covers 6K FF.

------------------------------------------------

Angenieux Optimo 28-340mm T2.9
- Covers 6K HD

------------------------------------------------

Arri Fujinon Alura 15.5-45mm T2.8.
@15.5 - 6K WS covers with vignette and potential coloful UVI
@18 - 6K FF covers with soft vignette
*** - Be careful of iris pulls, UVI

------------------------------------------------

Arri Fujinon Alura 30-80 T2.8
@30 - Covers 6K FF w/ vignette

------------------------------------------------

Arri Fujinon Alura 18-80mm T2.6
@18 - Portholes 6K FF, covers 5.5K WS
@40 - 6K FF covers

------------------------------------------------

Fujinon Cabrio 19-90mm T2.9
@19 - 6K FF vignettes, portholes as iris closes, which eventually encroaches on 6K WS coverage, 6K HD works fine
@70 - covers 6K FF nicely

------------------------------------------------

Canon 17-120mm T2.95

6K Full Frame - Hard corner clip @17mm. By 40mm, soft vignette and usable
6K 2:1 - Practically same as above
6K Widescreen - Soft vignette @17mm, ok by 20mm
6K HD - Covers well, very minor light falloff (expected) at 17mm
Anything less than the 6K HD frame size on the Dragon and you're all good.

(Notes courtesy Matt Duclos)

------------------------------------------------

Angenieux 25-250 HR T3.5
Covers 5K :)

------------------------------------------------

Zeiss CZ 70-200mm T2.9
Zeiss CZ 28-80mm T2.9
Zeiss CZ 15-30mm T2.9
- Covers 6K FF

------------------------------------------------

Focus Optics RUBY 14-24mm T2.8
- Covers 6K FF


As more focal lengths, sets, and zooms are tested we will add to this list and update the graphics.

This is the "simple" version of these tests and I have taken additional notes. If you have any questions regarding coverage and performance post them here and I'll do my best to answer your questions.

Some of the basic notes on coverage that everybody should keep in mind:

  • Any lens designed for Full Frame 35mm or VistaVision formats cover Dragon at 6K
  • If you have a lens that covers Mysterium-X at 5K today you will cover Dragon at 5.5K safely
  • All lenses designed for Super 35mm will cover Dragon at 5K


Crop Factors and Format FOV Calculations:

Okay. So we have to keep in mind relative crop factor here. Meaning if FF35 is your starting point that's 1X, and if S35 is your starting point that's 1X. Here's the info for both with the aspect ratio of Dragon's sensor taken into account:

For people who visualize FF35 as their starting point......

Epic Dragon Crop Factors FF35 Relative to Full Frame 35mm:
6K Full = 1.17x
5.5K = 1.28x
5K = 1.40x
4.5K = 1.56
4K = 1.75x
3.5K = 2x
3K = 2.33x
2.5K = 2.8x
2K = 3.50x


and for S35 as a base.....

Epic Dragon Crop Factors S35 Relative to Super 35mm 3-Perf 26mm diagonal (Dragon 5K):
6K Full = 0.81x
5.5K = 0.88x
5K = 0.97x
4.5K = 1.08
4K = 1.21x
3.5K = 1.39x
3K = 1.61x
2.5K = 1.94x
2K = 2.42x


Feel free to share and use this information for whatever you'd like.
 
Last edited:
Nicely done Phil, thanks buddy, even so I already know what are the only lenses I am interested in using... ;)

But very surprised that the Leica Summilux Cine Primes don't cover all formats @6K from the wide end, and Master Primes, and even UP's much much older glass do (well form 18mm up any ways)... Very Surprised!!


Some got the info wrong here, I really hope is you Phil... ;)

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?103664-Dragon-and-Leica-lenses
 
Thanks
 
Thanks for sharing. It is surprising to see the Leicas' limited coverage after Jim's "Dragon and Leica" thread.
 
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  • #8
Okay. I'm going to add some additional thoughts here. Some things that we've known for some time regarding lenses really.

Most cinema lenses have been designed with the S35 specification in mind. This is important to acknowledge as there is performance fall off often beyond that spec. However, it's not exactly that simple. Typically speaking if you are focused around 3 feet (1 meter) away and beyond you are already in the "sweet spot" in terms of optimal resolving power of a lens. Where a good deal of these lenses start to exhibit strange performance is at the closest focus distance. Specifically in the corners (or simply the outer field). Some lenses behave better than others in this regard as variations on design, element type, element size, and transport come into play.

The basic concept is that generally speaking lenses perform better in "field" coverage as you begin to focus more and more towards infinity. Infinity often represents the largest possible projected image circle in a prime lens design. However, there's a sweet spot in there between close focus and infinity where a lens typical performs "best".


Okay onto some crazier lens theory and how it reflects towards production.

Red Dragon at 5K creates essentially a 3-perf S35 frame. This is actually providing something that many folks have wanted for some time. A way to get 5K into a S35 image circle. This is attributed primarily to the new smaller pixel design of Dragon. Lens character and feel often comes with this sweet spot because that's the format the lens was designed for. However, you may choose to favor say a wider FOV, larger format size, and higher resolution when shooting. That's where 6K comes in.

Between down sampling, cropping, and re-framing you get a lot of freedom during capture and in post.

6K is going to provide that larger format feel, high resolution, and general "wonderment". However, there's no reason not to shoot in 5.5K, 5K, or even 4K with Dragon.

With Dragon it's sort of less about resolution and more about format. Why? Because you can create a brilliant and lovely 4K finish from any of those formats listed above.

And perceptually speaking you are getting more resolution not only across the whole sensor coverage, but also more resolution in the sweet spot of all modern lenses. Basically what I'm saying, coverage or not at 6K, Dragon makes all of your lenses perform better if you think of it in the whole sense.
 
Yeah Phil I hear you buddy, but for me Dragon is to shoot 6K all the way, I have been waiting for it, and for PRINT work is the only way to miss less and less Medium Format cameras, I am just sincerely disappointed that Leica Summilux C. Primes don't cover the full sensor in al formats as Jim mentioned, obviously I miss understood something in his message, any ways, I understand perfectly all perforation formats of the 35mm medium in cinema world, and the design of Leica's Cine primes is obviously to that end, just that I surely hoped they would have covered the 6K DRAGON sensor entirely even at the widest Focal (not out yet).


I guess I know what else I'll be doing when back in LA... Lens Lab and get those FF Cine Primes developed once and for all... ;)
 
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KETCH ROSSi said:
I guess I know what else I'll be doing when back in LA... Lens Lab and get those FF Cine Primes developed once and for all... ;)
Click to expand...

Heh. There was a time when I spent "some coin" researching and developing a series of lenses. At some point that became me trying to drain the ocean with a spoon. Just didn't work out.

Don't give up on those Leicas. They are going to produce some of the best material on Dragon.
 
Not giving Up Phil, but I still remain disappointed by the coverage, and with the new Wides coming abut will likely get worst... So I'll be hard at work to bring those FF Cine Lenses to reality once and for all, while still very curious to see the possibility of a RED Leica S mount, and see how those Leica S series Medium Format lenses perform on Dragon... ;)
 
Phil Holland said:
Hello all,

Mid-July 2013 we set out to discover and learn about how lenses would cover the new Red Dragon sensor. We tested out the most commonly owned, most popular to rent, and most used focal lengths on used on all types of productions.


Below you can find links to images summarizing the general coverage notes for each set:
As more focal lengths, sets, and zooms are tested we will add to this list and update the graphics.

This is the "simple" version of these tests and I have taken additional notes. If you have any questions regarding coverage and performance post them here and I'll do my best to answer your questions.

Some of the basic notes on coverage that everybody should keep in mind:
  • Any lens designed for Full Frame 35mm or VistaVision formats cover Dragon at 6K
  • If you have a lens that covers Mysterium-X at 5K today you will cover Dragon at 5.5K safely
  • All lenses designed for Super 35mm will cover Dragon at 5K

Feel free to share and use this information for whatever you'd like.
Click to expand...

Great work mate.
 
KETCH ROSSi said:
Not giving Up Phil, but I still remain disappointed by the coverage, and with the new Wides coming abut will likely get worst... So I'll be hard at work to bring those FF Cine Lenses to reality once and for all, while still very curious to see the possibility of a RED Leica S mount, and see how those Leica S series Medium Format lenses perform on Dragon... ;)
Click to expand...

I gave up on 18mm lenses long ago Ketch, never liked the lens distortion on any of them... 25mm on the 6k looks like a 21mm now. thats my new wide. :)
 
Phil,

Thanks so much for this.

Great stuff.

An instant sticky really!

David
 
KETCH ROSSi said:
Yeah Phil I hear you buddy, but for me Dragon is to shoot 6K all the way,)
Click to expand...

Hence why I opted for the Canon glass for the test. So i had 6k all the way .
Not my favorite choice of lens for obvious reasons , but they work well optically.
 
Phil Holland said:
Heh. There was a time when I spent "some coin" researching and developing a series of lenses. At some point that became me trying to drain the ocean with a spoon. Just didn't work out.

Don't give up on those Leicas. They are going to produce some of the best material on Dragon.
Click to expand...

Mark Toia said:
Hence why I opted for the Canon glass for the test. So i had 6k all the way .
Not my favorite choice of lens for obvious reasons , but they work well optically.
Click to expand...


And this is now the perfect time to bring to life my long time idle FF Cine Lens project...: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...For-DRAGON-In-the-works&p=1238615#post1238615


Phil... Do you want in? No more "coin" at your end to spend buddy... ;)
 
Phil, might I make a SUGGESTION, what would-the-lens-look like at 6000 X 3000, would they vignette at the same place or would you get a lot more coverage than a 5.5 K frame! Just a question? It would be nice to test the “Leica Summilux-C Primes” and the “Zeiss Master Primes”! Or maybe that’s a job for the Red Camera company since they did say there is full 6K coverage in both lenses!

Humberto Rivera
 
Now here's a killer-combo:
RED_Dragon_MASTER_PRIME_100mm.jpg


Drool, drool, drool :drool:
 
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  • #19
Hmm. Somebody went sniffing and attempting to correct my color work no less. Let me give you the actual photo:

phfx_redDragonJuly2013LensCoverage_0006.jpg


And a few beauty shots of other lenses in action.

Here's a nice lens too :) Leica Summilux-C 21mm
phfx_redDragonJuly2013LensCoverage_0004.jpg


And this one is pin sharp wide open. Panavision Primo 40mm T1.9
phfx_redDragonJuly2013LensCoverage_0012.jpg


The 50mm T1.9 Red Pro Prime looks great on Dragon:
phfx_redDragonJuly2013LensCoverage_0002.jpg


I'm pretty partial to my set of Schneider Cine-Xenars too:
phfx_redDragonJuly2013LensCoverage_0008.jpg
 
interesting

interesting

Can we get a list of the cheap lenses that do cover going?

CP2s?

CP2 super speeds?

Xenon Full Frames?

Canon Cine?

and do all the focal lengths cover for all the above options?

There are options out there that should cover that aren't all DSLR glass (and all the mechanical issues associated with their usage)... I am just getting ready to invest in glass after my Epic and Dragon upgrades and I'd like to verify for those looking to purchase full frame entry level cinema glass what our best options are... Thanks
 
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