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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DRAGON - ITS THE REAL DEAL !!!!

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Elsie N said:
Seems a lot of people posting don't get it that this thread is not about them and what they can do... it's about what Mark has done in a short amount of time with a new camera system and minimal tools that are able to do actual 6k finish.
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Well I do think that it is about us, the users, the ones that care about this upgrade and will want to shoot on it. This is not an internal forum, it's public.

Having said that, I'm still scratching my head as to why Red decided it would be a good idea to show the very first footage of a camera that everyone is so eagerly waiting for and have such high expectations, to show us a test showing the sensor under stress!

Surely it would be much more productive to everyone's confidence and especially to those that don't use Red yet to see a kick ass test showing the Dragon at its best. Marks test is incredibly valuable, but surely is the kind of test you want to see after you seen the sensor in full glory. Because that's the feeling I have now, that I still don't know much about Dragon...

Mark did the test because he accepted to do it, he was kind to do it and as I see it this is a classy touch from Red, to use one of the REDUSER members to be the first person to publicly show the world the Dragon.

But with that comes everything else...

I guess what I'm saying is, I'm hungrier now to see more Dragon footage than before...
 
Great work Mark, thank you for taking the time out of your day to do this test. I for one am so excited for the upgrade!!

This thread has reached the end of its shelf life, in my opinion.
 
António Fagundes said:
Well I do think that it is about us, the users, the ones that care about this upgrade and will want to shoot on it. This is not an internal forum, it's public.

Having said that, I'm still scratching my head as to why Red decided it would be a good idea to show the very first footage of a camera that everyone is so eagerly waiting for and have such high expectations, to show us a test showing the sensor under stress!

Surely it would be much more productive to everyone's confidence and especially to those that don't use Red yet to see a kick ass test showing the Dragon at its best. Marks test is incredibly valuable, but surely is the kind of test you want to see after you seen the sensor in full glory. Because that's the feeling I have now, that I still don't know much about Dragon...

Mark did the test because he accepted to do it, he was kind to do it and as I see it this is a classy touch from Red, to use one of the REDUSER members to be the first person to publicly show the world the Dragon.

But with that comes everything else...

I guess what I'm saying is, I'm hungrier now to see more Dragon footage than before...
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I was referring to the ones on the forum who take an image off the Internet and try to grade it as a jpeg or whatever. That to me says they are trying to make it about them and their glorious skills.

As to why RED would allow a premature, less than ultimate test to be done? Well, if you've been on the forums since RED announced upgrades starting in September, you may remember countless calls for footage.

RED is damned when they do and damned when they don't. If I were them I would turn off the Reduser knob and go hold their own private celebration of a successful test proving a job well done!

EDIT: One more thing worth mentioning is that Mark lobbied to do the testing and RED acquiesced. Mark busted his ass putting the camera through its paces, but as Mark himself has said, he didn't have to send the camera back. I suspect there are about a couple of hundred on REDuser who would have gladly traded places with him. Having seen what he accomplished, I think RED made a wise choice and Mark received a coveted (but probably paid-for upgrade) token of their thanks.'-)
 
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I think what a lot of people here overlook is the fact that the EPIC Dragon can shoot so many pixels per second.
This is not trivial, folks!

Sure, there are high-speed cameras out there (Phantom comes to mind) that can shoot over 1000fps...but for how long?
Sure, there are pro Nikon and Canon cameras that can shoot over 20MP full RAW files, but at what speed...and maintain that speed for how long?

Consider the heat build-up, the limitation of the recording media's speed, the processor, the buffers...
RED has managed to out-perform everyone else, and bring a product to the market that is an order of magnitude more capable than the competition.

By the way, there are 3 reasons that I can think of as to why the Dragon's RedCode is so highly compressed when shooting high frame-rates:
1. The recording media (Red Mag SSD) and the wires that connect it to the camera are simply not fast enough to record more pixels/second. Not even the 512GB mag.
2. Even if the mags could handle less compressed footage (5:1 or better, at 60fps or higher, 16MP or higher), they would fill up so quickly that recording times would be down to few minutes.
3. You'll barely see the difference between 17:1 and 8:1. You'll barely see the difference between 8:1 and 3:1. Why bother with extra terabytes of footage when the gain is almost none-existent?
I'm relying on Mark's notes and sample footage for this one.

Kudos to the RED team, engineers, management and marketing.

And as a bonus, besides getting a camera than can push out pixels like no other - it also gives you better DR and cleaner high-ISO shots.
And the camera size stays the same. And the upgrade costs is VERY reasonable.
Truly amazing feat.
 
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Elsie N said:
I was referring to the ones on the forum who take an image off the Internet and try to grade it as a jpeg or whatever. That to me says they are trying to make it about them and their glorious skills.

As to why RED would allow a premature, less than ultimate test to be done? Well, if you've been on the forums since RED announced upgrades starting in September, you may remember countless calls for footage.

RED is damned when they do and damned when they don't. If I were them I would turn off the Reduser knob and go hold their own private celebration of a successful test proving a job well done!

EDIT: One more thing worth mentioning is that Mark lobbied to do the testing and RED acquiesced. Mark busted his ass putting the camera through its paces, but as Mark himself has said, he didn't have to send the camera back. I suspect there are about a couple of hundred on REDuser who would have gladly traded places with him. Having seen what he accomplished, I think RED made a wise choice and Mark received a coveted (probably paid-for upgrade) token of their thanks.'-)
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Elsie, since I was one of the ones who took JPGs out of the internet and tried to grade it, and since you placed your first comment right before I posted mine, I can`t help but feel a little disrespected since my intention was never to make it about my skills.

There are a few fellow users that expressed having mixed feelings about the images they saw and my intention was about showing that more pleasant results can be easily achievable, EVEN with JPGs from the internet, so one can only imagine what can be done with raw.

I would like to add that I`m very thankful to Mark and for the effort he put.
 
Jannard said:
It has been stated a few times already but I'll continue to remind everyone that these are 1st tests... and we are really proud of the results. But fear not... we have a thousand knobs to turn to extract more from this package.

Jim
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Awesome! Can't wait to see what you guys have in mind. From what I've observed and felt and as I'm sure you gather, the professional cinematography community is looking for expanded dynamic range, mostly in the highlights. And we've all been very excited since the first chart that showed 18 stops of DR. Our imaginations have run wild dreaming of 2+ extra stops in the highlights and a super smooth gradual rolloff. We've been fantasizing about it for months. We look to you guys because if anyone can do it, you guys can! These first images look really promising!!
 
Some RED haters on Nofilmschool are now comparing box office totals to determine which camera is better between Epic and Alexa hahahahahahahahahahaha :willy_nilly:

Can't wait to do some side by sides and watch the haters come to the dark side. Or the blood side if your into the gang thing.

One of the things I love most about RED is they are always improving their products. They never stop. They come out with the most advanced camera and then improve upon it over and over (and at a far less cost than the competition). I personally love this.

Can't wait for the Dragon and excited about RC4, RG4!
 
Rodrigo Prata said:
Elsie, since I was one of the ones who took JPGs out of the internet and tried to grade it, and since you placed your first comment right before I posted mine, I can`t help but feel a little disrespected since my intention was never to make it about my skills.

There are a few fellow users that expressed having mixed feelings about the images they saw and my intention was about showing that more pleasant results can be easily achievable, EVEN with JPGs from the internet, so one can only imagine what can be done with raw.

I would like to add that I`m very thankful to Mark and for the effort he put.
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Rodrigo, I respect your good intentions.
 
Great test Mark, and as always beautiful images.
Boy, that low light makes me smile.
I'll be in Melbourne in 2 weeks shooting horses in very low light ; pass by see the show.;)

I was wondering what's a skew like on the 6k sensor (not that I was ever bothered by skew on the MX)

Cheers
Albert
 
Read-reset of the Dragon sensor is half that of the MX sensor... so skew will be half as much.

Jim

albert rudnicki said:
Great test Mark, and as always beautiful images.
Boy, that low light makes me smile.
I'll be in Melbourne in 2 weeks shooting horses in very low light ; pass by see the show.;)

I was wondering what's a skew like on the 6k sensor (not that I was ever bothered by skew on the MX)

Cheers
Albert
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HALF as much skew! Now that makes me excited for hand held action.

When I first watched the edit I felt like a few of the car pan shot foreground/background elements had a better feel different from Epic/ Scarlet content in motion... It made me think that Mark could've been using a Motion mount... But could this reset timing be the cause?

If so... Very very exciting.
 
I've been following this everywhere and still haven't posted here. I'm blown away by this test and this was EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED TO SEE as a reduser. I know how much I can put on grading, here I can see what this sensor can do. Thanks Mark Toia, Thank you Jarred and Jim for letting Mark be the reduser "reporter". He did an excellent job. The "pretty" graded pictures are not for us but for the engadget crowd.

Cannot wait for my Dragon call.
 
I just gotta say this again, I'm really impressed with those high compression ratios. Can't wait to test it out at 4K, but I'm impressed with what's retained in Mark's shots.
 
Has anybody considered that this may be the very first time EVER for a Digital sensor (stills or motion) to shoot a no penalty 16+ stops (or even 14 stops for that matter) DR from 250ISO all the way to 6400+ISO?

That is HUGE! I don't know of any other sensor or camera that is capable of this feat. Someone enlighten me if I am wrong. Film also had variable DR based on the specific stock, so this may be the first time EVER!
 
Matt Ryan said:
Has anybody considered that this may be the very first time EVER for a Digital sensor (stills or motion) to shoot a no penalty 16 stops (or even 14 stops for that matter) DR from 250ISO all the way to 6400+ISO?

That is HUGE! I don't know of any other sensor or camera that is capable of this feat. Someone enlighten me if I am wrong. Film also had variable DR based on the specific stock, so this may be the first time EVER!
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So essentially, history was being made from the get go ever since that DR chart was shown. :)
 
Phil Holland said:
I just gotta say this again, I'm really impressed with those high compression ratios. Can't wait to test it out at 4K, but I'm impressed with what's retained in Mark's shots.
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Agreed. The dogs in slow-mo at 4000 iso, 100fps, 17:1 compression kind of blew my mind, to be honest (at 3:00 in Toia's piece).
 
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