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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DRAGON - ITS THE REAL DEAL !!!!

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António Fagundes said:
Wonderful!

How did you bring that back?
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Hello there António,

I brought the color back in the jpeg's clipped highlights by only using the
"Selective Color" tool in Photoshop. I added a bit of yellow to the white channel.
 
Antonio... you are doing quite a disservice to this forum by posting stuff that has no relation to what Mark posted. These are not the same shots. Until you get a Dragon in your hands and can post the same shot comparison but graded equally, all you are doing is stirring the pot. Read Mark's remarks carefully.

Jim

António Fagundes said:
A lot of (wrong) assumptions there Roberto...

Yes I have graded tons of footage, including Red, Alexa, DSLRs, Film, etc... I know what clipping is and I know you can't get it back in the grade, that's why it is a big issue and that's why I asked Martin how he did it, because if he photoshop'd it, he cheated. This is moving images not stills! But if not, I would love to know how he did it.

I'm not saying that the clipped highlights in Mark's tests are ruining Dragon, they are not. It's just that it's how an image is perceived in terms of quality, how it handles the two extremes, light and shadow. And clipping seems to be at the moment a bigger issue than the noisy shadows of the Dragon. I know Mark's tests are pushing the Dragon to the limit, but regarding clipped highlights has nothing to do with pushing or not pushing, it has to do with the architecture of the sensor. Clipping makes an image look bad, its not a creative choice, its a technical glitch. It is also the MAIN reason it is keeping very high profile DPs from using Red, and because I love Red's image, I get frustrated as to why this is still an issue, when clearly other cameras have solved this.

Here's an example of what a sunset should look like without clipping. This is the most similar to Mark's shot I found. I believe this footage is probably graded, but I wouldn't know as I just found it Googlin'. But it doesn't matter anyway, because a clipped highlight is always a clipped highlight, you can't get it back, its a glitch, nada, zero information there. And notice how there is still information in the couple's shadows, meaning that it is not exposed just for the sun.


There's no bleeding, no CA and most of all there is a pleasing and gradual rolloff. To a lot of people this might not be important, or not even see the difference, but to most DP's this is where you really judge a digital image. Of course, there are a lot of ways to go around this problem, but still it bugs me that we still have to shoot around this problem when Dragon arrives.

If clipped highlights are an issue for you, check this sample of Red (Epic), Alexa and F55 shot of the sun test, its revealing. If not, just ignore my post altogether.
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Looks like miles of Dynamic range room, better color sci, improved noise floor and better at higher iso's. Grabbing a beer. Cheers to ya.
Oh, and 6K too ;)
 
I've waited all my life for a Sensor as Grand as the Dragon Sensor.

And to be perfectly blunt and honest...I'm freakin' BLOWN AWAY by this Sensor,
and I haven't even seen the RAW files yet.

I'm going to be in Dynamic Range HEAVEN!
 
Jannard said:
Antonio... you are doing quite a disservice to this forum by posting stuff that has no relation to what Mark posted. These are not the same shots. Until you get a Dragon in your hands and can post the same shot comparison but graded equally, all you are doing is stirring the pot. Read Mark's remarks carefully before you embarrass yourself further.

Jim
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Mt. Jannard, I thought I was doing quite the opposite. But if this forum is a marketing tool then by all means, I will refrain from any more observations regarding Mark's footage. I just thought I was making constructive observations regarding one specific 'problem' of the footage I saw, nothing else.

I did it because I care. Because I love to shoot Red. And to my eye, it seems like the same old problem is still there. But I hope I'm wrong, I hope that once I shoot Dragon and grade it, this won't be a problem. Because that's what I want, I want my camera to be bullet proof, and not crack down with a highlight.

I can rent any camera I want for my jobs, but I choose Red every time. Not because I want to make you happy, but because that's the image I like most. I choose the example from the Alexa, because so far its the only camera that has been handling highlights better, but that is it's only advantage to Red (Epic), everything else about Alexa I really don't care all that much compared to Red.

Don't worry I'm not trying to stir the pot, life's too short for that kind of nonsense. I just want to make sure I know what the Dragon really is, that's all.
 
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I am extremely pleased that there are only but very few silly comments about what the DRAGON sensor is and what it isn't...

It seems that there are always experts in the field of everything around here, and never really just take any of the material posted as such, always trying to be an expert and find what it isn't there to be found...

Mark did a great job showcasing what the RED RAGON can do, and this is just but a small taste if it's capacities, and while I of course can't wait to showcase some Skin and amazing compositions with it, I also can't wait to see the results of others with the RED DRAGON as I truly love what RED has done...

Not that I am unhappy with the Epic MX, which is, actually "WAS" for me the world's best camera which to my eyes in 4K not only finally matched the 35mm Film, but surpassed, yet at last if there was ever a doubt, the RED EPIC DRAGON has become the best Camera in the world... Literally putting any given doubts to sleep... Film in any size can truly rest in peace... And let the aficionados shoot with it as they wish, till there is still some stock left that is... ;)


All I am waiting for now, is to do a nice Fashion Film in some spectacular back drops and colors with specialized lighting High Fashion like, and not only have the 4K Fashion Film of it, but also print some 6' Large Prints as I would with a 645 Medium Format camera... That is what I can't wait for now that I have seen what it can achieve...


The DRAGON is ever closer...
 
Mark,
I know what it takes to put together a piece like this and I personally would like to express my sincere thanks to you and your crew for taking the time and putting in the effort.
A "job" well done.
Steve
 
Maybe the logic goes...rolling off at the sensor and rolling off in post visually accomplish the exact same thing except rolling off at the sensor throws away a little data that Dragon (with a steeper cutoff) gives you the option to keep or roll off (to taste) in post, if you fancy. I suppose I'm good with that.

This may make dealing with clipped highlights a bit more fiddly but allows more grading flexibility. And, given a complimentary shooting strategy to what capabilities Dragon undeniably offers, may not be too much of an issue under many shooting conditions. We'll see.

There are a couple more MX issues I'd like to see Dragon tackle that I won't mention here because Mark didn't test for them. I'm still figuring it out. I may just be slow on the uptake. I'm definitely going to need a few more spoonfuls before I make a decision.
 
Relly nice Mark, Can't even understand how you got the time to shoot it all. Would be great if you could upload some r3d's or is that not aloud just yet?
 
So I went on Vimeo on my 60" samsung smart tv app (footage always looks better through the tv version, way less artifacting) and needless to say this was the best looking footage in terms of resolution and color clarity and depth that I have ever seen. Shit I thought my 1080 tv was a 4k display it looked so good.

I highly recommend watching it this way as opposed to just on your computer. Soooo much better. the detail is bananas.
 
It is simply amazing, Mark! Everyone who works with me saw the pictures and we are trying to imagine how the sensor should be amazing in full resolution. Just waiting the upgrades... All the best!
 
Antonio... Mark has also shot about every camera known to man. We gave him no guidance what to test or what to post. Unless you were standing over him when he graded these images you don't know what is there and what isn't. Mark acknowledged just opening them in RCX and adding a curve. I'd also point out that everything clips, the Dragon does, the Alexa does, film does. It is just a matter of when, how much and how smooth the transition is. Shoot a properly exposed building at noon with the sun directly in the shot and tell me you see detail in the sun. Making a comparison judgment on footage with a simple s-curve without taking anything else into consideration may be considered a premature opinion. Mark had the camera and saw what he saw. Unfortunately you haven't had the same opportunity yet. Again, I'd suggest you read what Mark had to say and then do your own tests. Getting into this before you do is counter productive to the celebration that should be happening for all our customers. We see more DR than any other motion capture device. Apparently so does Mark. This is an upgrade to an EPIC, not a new camera. It happens at the same time we give you new color science and 6K at 100 fps that can be shot at higher compression REDCODE so you can still record to your current SSDs. That fact that I have to explain this on a Sunday is mildly frustrating... even though I now know you don't mean any harm.

Your courtesy comment is noted. I deleted that part of my post but apparently not in time.

Jim

António Fagundes said:
Mt. Jannard, I thought I was doing quite the opposite. But if this forum is a marketing tool then by all means, I will refrain from any more observations regarding Mark's footage. I just thought I was making constructive observations regarding one specific 'problem' of the footage I saw, nothing else.

I did it because I care. Because I love to shoot Red. And to my eye, it seems like the same old problem is still there. But I hope I'm wrong, I hope that once I shoot Dragon and grade it, this won't be a problem. Because that's what I want, I want my camera to be bullet proof, and not crack down with a highlight.

I can rent any camera I want for my jobs, but I choose Red every time. Not because I want to make you happy, but because that's the image I like most. I choose the example from the Alexa, because so far its the only camera that has been handling highlights better, but that is it's only advantage to Red (Epic), everything else about Alexa I really don't care all that much compared to Red.

Don't worry I'm not trying to stir the pot, life's too short for that kind of nonsense. I just want to make sure I know what the Dragon really is, that's all.

And don't worry, I'm not embarrassing myself. And with all due respect, this is all about me (the consumer) not about you. So I would appreciate a little more courtesy from you if that's alright.
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Thanks for the footage, Mark. It is clear that Dragon will set the new standard by which all other sensors will strive to challenge moving forward.

These are only ungraded shots, and I'd say they already put to rest any remaining silly arguments regarding dynamic range, color fidelity, skin tones, etc. Just imagine what the graded .R3Ds will look like!

Jim, it appears you have achieved your original vision to provide a digital option which is a worthy replacement to film.

Congratulations to the RED team.
 
Jim, lets steer this somewhere positive again - most of us really get it and can read what Mark shown us.

For what its worth, I once cured a client's gripe about 'magenta highlights' by tilting their damn laptop screen to the right angle... lol

Where do you see yourself personally settling on Redcode for regular use? 17:1 is a figure at which I would previously have run for the hills, but this is obviously an incredible shift...
 
Jannard said:
I'd also point out that everything clips, the Dragon does, the Alexa does, film does. It is just a matter of when, how much and how smooth is the transition. Shoot a properly exposed building at noon with the sun directly in the shot and tell me you see detail in the sun.
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This is worth repeating! Sometimes I'm surprised at what people are expecting to happen when you point a camera into a scene with 20+ stops of luminance in it....

The Dragon sensor is a major step forward in digital cinema in terms of DR + resolution.
 
OH BROTHER! This is a good news/bad news post.

Good news - Dragon rocks!

Bad news - I might soon be spending more money than I can afford to. :emote_happyhappy:
 
Always great to see Mick Fanning pulling into a barrel off Snapper Rocks or D-Bah, and captured at 6K. Capturing the fluid motion of man and water, you rock, Mark!
 
Björn Benckert said:
Relly nice Mark, Can't even understand how you got the time to shoot it all. Would be great if you could upload some r3d's or is that not aloud just yet?
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No RCX to use for Dragon footage yet Björn. End of August...

Jarred Land said:
Public Dragon RCX builds wont be released till the end of August ( in time for the Rocket-X ) so you wont be able to open the files if Mark posted R3D's.
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