DRAGON - ITS THE REAL DEAL !!!! - (PART 2)

[Elsie N]

... You and others accused Rob of being color blind, , implied that's it's all in people's heads and claimed that Red is effectively perfect and doesn't need to change a thing.

Gavin, I cut out some of the rambling stuff so as not to be confusing. Anyone wanting to try and make sense out of it can read your original post.

Now, for the part that was a little more coherent, I did not accuse Rob of being color blind... I suggested he may be a synasthete which is more like an enhanced color recognition rather than being color blind.

And while I did suggest it's all in his head, I said that while saying he has powers of recognition above and beyond what most people have, and he confirmed that he is indeed in the top .05% of color recognition capability... i.e., Perfect Color Acuity. He didn't say how he was measured for that but I take him at his word that he does possess these traits.

Numerous people have said that if you have a problem with skin tones you don't know what you're doing etc because (Insert flawed argument about being rich therefore the color is perfect etc...) Complaining that the people who ask about skin tones are being mean and insulting is completely flipping the situation.

This doesn't directly apply to me but I'm guessing the part in parentheses is referring to Mark pushing back at Rob's subliminal assertion that Mark's test is either a short coming of the camera or a shortcoming of Mark's abilities.

Reference my earlier post about The Rounder's movie... if you enter a thread making "fighting words" statements, expect the fireworks that will soon follow. And for the 1,327th time (I'm just estimating here) the comments were made about a quick and dirty camera stress test. If someone posts that either the camera or the tester is flawed, they are somewhat flawed in their thinking (IMO) for harping on the/any expected imperfections.

I've said this before and I'm saying it again... that smacks of someone trying to put a notch on their gun in order to build a reputation as a gunfighter. And the overwhelming response against suggests he encountered a whole posse of Redusers standing against him instead of just being allowed to walk through the streets of Dodge with everyone fearfully cowering behind saloon doors and curtained windows based on his "reputation."

You don't get to call people blind and stupid and then complain that they aren't treating you with respect in return. Don't be a bully and then complain when the kid hits back.

You obviously interpreted anything I've written this way or you would not have posted it. But again, I did not call Rob blind... synesthesia is neither blindness nor is it color blindness. And I never asked for Rob's respect... I could care less. I did try to point out that he was disrespectful to others here, perhaps unconsciously, and that is why the posse is lining up against him rather than behind him. Rob may be an excellent colorist but he lacks leadership skills, IMO. '-)

And no problem with Rob hitting back. But if I read the Reduser Posse correctly, he's just going to get bloodier and bloodier. As for bullying? I see it as Rob trying to be the bully by accusing everyone who disagrees with HIM of being blind-faith fanboys.

But I understand that you may see things the same way as Rob does. Probably a generational thing... or maybe it is as simple as you saying to-mae-to and me saying to-mah-to.

 

[Mark Toia]

I enjoy your retorts Elsie, You have me cracking up laughing !

 

[Elsie N]

I enjoy your retorts Elsie, You have me cracking up laughing !

Thanks Mark... REDusers, for the most part... gotcher back.

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

I enjoy your retorts Elsie, You have me cracking up laughing !

Same.

 

[George A.]

Mark,

People are complaining about the blown highlights in many of your shots (the ugly specular highlights etc).

The majority of us know what's happening (basic grade, no fancy things done in post etc)... but to put them to rest, why don't you take 2-3 shots that exhibit those hard clipping highlights and re-grade them more carefully? As if you'd be doing a real-world job. Grade them carefully, post them here and everyone will shut up.

No reason to stick to the fast, basic grade forever - I think the effort won't be much for 2 or 3 shots...

What do you think? I think it's worth it.

Great test, thanks for taking the time Mark!

+3

Mark - do you want to give it a try?

 

[Sergio Perez]

Sergio, with all due respect, i think Mark made it abundantly clear with just a cursory reading of his posts, that he really wasn't using a Rocket workflow. Maybe I'm wrong. But there is no need for him to answer questions about Red Rocket if it is obvious that he isn't using a Red Rocket.

I never feel ignored if someone doesn't answer a question I post in this forum. But I always feel thankful when they do. Mark is INSANELY busy and complaints just come across as ungrateful.

No, he hasn't. He said he was getting 1/4 playback in a Retina for 6K. He also said he edited everything in FCPX in 4K prores. He didn't say how he got there. He said he wanted to be fast, so I assume he was using a rocket, because converting all that material would take a lot of time.

Disappointed with Mark. Never did nothing to the guy. In fact, quite supportive and a big admirer of his work. But as a reduser and someone that should be sharing with the community about Dragon specific things, personally, I am very disappointed. And my questions in no specific way harm anyone or anything.

 

[Mark Toia]

+3

Mark - do you want to give it a try?

The moment resolve has Dragon 6k installed. Ill be onto it.

 

[paul schefz]

Am I the only one who thinks this is madness?

 

[Mark Toia]

No, he hasn't. He said he was getting 1/4 playback in a Retina for 6K. He also said he edited everything in FCPX in 4K prores. He didn't say how he got there. He said he wanted to be fast, so I assume he was using a rocket, because converting all that material would take a lot of time.

Disappointed with Mark. Never did nothing to the guy. In fact, quite supportive and a big admirer of his work. But as a reduser and someone that should be sharing with the community about Dragon specific things, personally, I am very disappointed. And my questions in no specific way harm anyone or anything.

Sorry Sergio, I missed your question. Don't be upset.
But I'll answer this current question.

No Red Rocket was used for this test... There is no current firmware from RED that will get the rocket working with 6k Dragon. As yet.
Yes I could play in 1/4 res (even better in 1/8res) the 6k footage straight out of a mac book pro laptop.
Using RCX only I performed a simple grade with no secondaries and no windows (only because RCX cannot perform secondaries or windows ) most shots were directly from RG3 colour space directly from the camera. I made a mistake by not ticking DRX when I exported from RCX which did not save the highlights as well. But.. Have corrected it now.
My export settings from RCX were 4444 - 4k and 2k prores. Reason for this was that I wanted to edit something quickly and FCPx is my chosen program to do so. No grading was performed in FCPx.
The only reason I did not grade out of Resolve is because resolve cannot read Dragon 6k as yet. Plus even If I did not want to hide anything with selective grading. I wanted to show you all what the camera delivers straight out of the box with Free software from RED. But knowing that this was not the final Dragon that will be delivered or the final colour science Im hoping for even better results.
I hope this resolves your issues.

And Sergio. You have done nothing to upset. All is good man.

 

[Sergio Perez]

Sorry Sergio, I missed your question. Don't be upset.
But I'll answer this current question.

No Red Rocket was used for this test... There is no current firmware from RED that will get the rocket working with 6k Dragon. As yet.
Yes I could play in 1/4 res (even better in 1/8res) the 6k footage straight out of a mac book pro laptop.
Using RCX only I performed a simple grade with no secondaries and no windows (only because RCX cannot perform secondaries or windows ) most shots were directly from RG3 colour space directly from the camera. I made a mistake by not ticking DRX when I exported from RCX which did not save the highlights as well. But.. Have corrected it now.
My export settings from RCX were 4444 - 4k and 2k prores. Reason for this was that I wanted to edit something quickly and FCPx is my chosen program to do so. No grading was performed in FCPx.
The only reason I did not grade out of Resolve is because resolve cannot read Dragon 6k as yet. Plus even If I did not want to hide anything with selective grading. I wanted to show you all what the camera delivers straight out of the box with Free software from RED. But knowing that this was not the final Dragon that will be delivered or the final colour science Im hoping for even better results.
I hope this resolves your issues.

And Sergio. You have done nothing to upset. All is good man.

Thanks Mark, that's all i wanted to hear. Glad to know it wasn't one or 2 of my silly remarks - there are often- that put me on your "ignore" list

My concern with the Rocket is that I hope to be getting a Dragon upgrade for a once in a lifetime event over here- the 60th Macau GP- and I wanted to be prepared. I can rent a Epic MX body for the event and use the Dragon at the same time, but would love to have some real world input from someone who also uses the Prores 4K workflow- and you seem to be a big fan of it so was hoping you got to try it!

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Gavin, I cut out some of the rambling stuff so as not to be confusing. Anyone wanting to try and make sense out of it can read your original post.

Now, for the part that was a little more coherent, I did not accuse Rob of being color blind... I suggested he may be a synasthete which is more like an enhanced color recognition rather than being color blind.

And while I did suggest it's all in his head, I said that while saying he has powers of recognition above and beyond what most people have, and he confirmed that he is indeed in the top .05% of color recognition capability... i.e., Perfect Color Acuity. He didn't say how he was measured for that but I take him at his word that he does possess these traits.



This doesn't directly apply to me but I'm guessing the part in parentheses is referring to Mark pushing back at Rob's subliminal assertion that Mark's test is either a short coming of the camera or a shortcoming of Mark's abilities.

Reference my earlier post about The Rounder's movie... if you enter a thread making "fighting words" statements, expect the fireworks that will soon follow. And for the 1,327th time (I'm just estimating here) the comments were made about a quick and dirty camera stress test. If someone posts that either the camera or the tester is flawed, they are somewhat flawed in their thinking (IMO) for harping on the/any expected imperfections.

I've said this before and I'm saying it again... that smacks of someone trying to put a notch on their gun in order to build a reputation as a gunfighter. And the overwhelming response against suggests he encountered a whole posse of Redusers standing against him instead of just being allowed to walk through the streets of Dodge with everyone fearfully cowering behind saloon doors and curtained windows based on his "reputation."



You obviously interpreted anything I've written this way or you would not have posted it. But again, I did not call Rob blind... synesthesia is neither blindness nor is it color blindness. And I never asked for Rob's respect... I could care less. I did try to point out that he was disrespectful to others here, perhaps unconsciously, and that is why the posse is lining up against him rather than behind him. Rob may be an excellent colorist but he lacks leadership skills, IMO. '-)

And no problem with Rob hitting back. But if I read the Reduser Posse correctly, he's just going to get bloodier and bloodier. As for bullying? I see it as Rob trying to be the bully by accusing everyone who disagrees with HIM of being blind-faith fanboys.

But I understand that you may see things the same way as Rob does. Probably a generational thing... or maybe it is as simple as you saying to-mae-to and me saying to-mah-to.

You have my respect nonetheless. I did think synesthesia meant color blind (was "sure", in fact). My bad. I've never been diagnosed with that, but I do think I see things a little differently than most people. Not necessarily "better", just differently.

You guys do have to chill out though. As Gavin pointed out, I was asking a question, with a great amount of respect, as well as expressing a hope, always mentioning the fact that whatever color issues I would like to see resolved, I still chose to invest in Red (we had the money to buy Alexa and opted for Epic) and that I prefer shooting with Red, overall, prefer it to any other camera. If you think that's me looking for a gunfight, that's a bit extreme. A simple answer could have been "Well I didn't spend much time grading that, but the skin tones could easily look more saturated, or "wait until the color science, we are working on it" or
Mark could even have posted a re-graded still - any number of responses would have been great. If all this board will tolerate is "Awesome Jim!" then I think many of us will loose interest. You don't learn much from reading 6 pages of "I can't wait" and "Red Rulz"

If "rah rah awesome" is the only customer feedback Red is interested in, then I'd say that's not how you run a business. My feeling is it absolutely is not what they want. They want to learn from us, see through our eyes, and reality is never 100% positive. It's always a mix.

I for one did indeed feel bullied. I'd guess (juts a guess) Mark was the popular captain of the football team dating all the cheerleaders, as he speaks of nerds with some derision on many occasions (including at the beginning of the first Dragon thread), but I was that nerd growing up, and still am, very much, proudly. In high school I was bullied to the point of requiring an ambulance and two days in the hospital, and I really, really don't like it any more now then I did then.

Now to get back to Dragon, it would be great of Mark could send some r3Ds to an experienced and talented colorist. (I;m not saying he is not talented, only that that color correction is not his full time job). There's Mr Most on this board, Jake Blackstone, others. I want to hear what they have to say, because honestly my wife and I try to avoid "quick and dirty" jobs graded on laptops, much more relevant to us and I would imagine many others on this forum, is how good something can be with a lot of careful effort applied to the grade, and how much work it is to get to perfection. I want to hear how far you can push layered windows of different ISOs.. all that. I want to hear the nerdy stuff, the careful stuff, at great, nerdy length.

 

[TD Wood]

Back to Dragon, señores!! Pronto!

 

[Mark Toia]

You have my respect nonetheless. I did think synesthesia meant color blind (was "sure", in fact). My bad. I've never been diagnosed with that, but I do think I see things a little differently than most people. Not necessarily "better", just differently.

You guys do have to chill out though. As Gavin pointed out, I was asking a question, with a great amount of respect, as well as expressing a hope, always mentioning the fact that whatever color issues I would like to see resolved, I still chose to invest in Red (we had the money to buy Alexa and opted for Epic) and that I prefer shooting with Red, overall, prefer it to any other camera. If you think that's me looking for a gunfight, that's a bit extreme. A simple answer could have been "Well I didn't spend much time grading that, but the skin tones could easily look more saturated, or "wait until the color science, we are working on it" or
Mark could even have posted a re-graded still - any number of responses would have been great. If all this board will tolerate is "Awesome Jim!" then I think many of us will loose interest. You don't learn much from reading 6 pages of "I can't wait" and "Red Rulz"

If "rah rah awesome" is the only customer feedback Red is interested in, then I'd say that's not how you run a business. My feeling is it absolutely is not what they want. They want to learn from us, see through our eyes, and reality is never 100% positive. It's always a mix.

I for one did indeed feel bullied. I'd guess (juts a guess) Mark was the popular captain of the football team dating all the cheerleaders, as he speaks of nerds with some derision on many occasions (including at the beginning of the first Dragon thread), but I was that nerd growing up, and still am, very much, proudly. In high school I was bullied to the point of requiring an ambulance and two days in the hospital, and I really, really don't like it any more now then I did then.

Now to get back to Dragon, it would be great of Mark could send some r3Ds to an experienced and talented colorist. (I;m not saying he is not talented, only that that color correction is not his full time job). There's Mr Most on this board, Jake Blackstone, others. I want to hear what they have to say, because honestly my wife and I try to avoid "quick and dirty" jobs graded on laptops, much more relevant to us and I would imagine many others on this forum, is how good something can be with a lot of careful effort applied to the grade, and how much work it is to get to perfection. I want to hear how far you can push layered windows of different ISOs.. all that. I want to hear the nerdy stuff, the careful stuff, at great, nerdy length.

Nerd to me is the smart, clever guy in class... not the guy that got bashed.
I got bashed at school almost everyday because I was small and because I was from another country, (seriously) and a very easy target, because I never fort back and I never told on the bullies.
So take no offence my nerd comments as they are more aimed at people more intelligent than I being able to give a more technically polished response.

Robert... Lets hug. lets move onwards and upwards.

Ok...
In regarding wanting R3D's.
I cannot load up the R3D's as I have been instructed not to by RED. Why, because the camera I was using is an unfinished beta camera.

You wont be able to read the R3D's in any of your systems anyway unless you have the beta RCX. Which I cannot share with anyone as I have been instructed not to... why? because it does not have the desired colour science in it as yet and RED don't want to release a build that is still in test beta mode. As they have been burnt before with early releases.

You won't be able to grade the R3D's in any other program other than the beta RCX, So technically what i have shared with you already is currently all I can do from within RCX.

Until RED releases the SDK for Dragon to the world, we then wait until Resolve, base-light , Scratch, Auto desk, Apple colour, and Adobe Speed grade etc etc etc release an update to actually be able to play 6k R3D's.

Now... I promise you this, the moment RCX has been released by RED to the public, and then RED give me permission to upload my raw files. then I will.
But once again, don't hold your breath, because the current beta Dragon camera I used , does not have the latest colour science, does not have the desired IR filtration and does not have the up incoming low pass filter in it so I doubt RED actually want R3D's from this camera actually floating around being judged on, knowing that the images generated from it will be not as good as compared to the release models that we will all someday get.

So in fact... this test was more about depth and range of the new sensor, just to give everyone a taste of the up incoming latitude and DR... not color. As that's still work in progress. And I'm sure you will have plenty of material to grade and test once the finally finished camera is released.

I hope this all makes sense, because Im starting to feel and sound like a broken record.

Thats it from me Robert... I'm all done.

 

[Phil Holland]

Just to add to what Mark said above.

To appease folks hungry for Dragon R3Ds, it has been mentioned that a "Dragon compatible" version of Redcine-X Pro would be coming around the end of the month. Which also means that around that time if anybody has a camera and is willing to share their raw material or if Red themselves uploads a few clips to share that's when everybody gets to dig their fingers into it.

 

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

I guess half of the colorists in this thread were asking for redlogfilm TIFFs to grade away, though. I get that it may not be acceptable to Red and therefore beta-testers to release log files with RC3 prior the new RCX and dragon's color science. As always, better late than "unfinished".

 

[Björn Benckert]

Just to add to what Mark said above.

To appease folks hungry for Dragon R3Ds, it has been mentioned that a "Dragon compatible" version of Redcine-X Pro would be coming around the end of the month. Which also means that around that time if anybody has a camera and is willing to share their raw material or if Red themselves uploads a few clips to share that's when everybody gets to dig their fingers into it.

Are all 3rd party software out of the game then? until they implement the new tech, or?

 

[Phil Holland]

Are all 3rd party software out of the game then? until they implement the new tech, or?

Once everything is "hammered down" Red will get 3rd parties what they need to support Dragon's new color science. How long that takes is up to the 3rd parties. However, I have a feeling this will be a speedy upgrade for a good deal of software suites.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

II'm going to try a novel approach. I'm gonna keep my mouth shut about dragon until it's all done.

jay

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

Mark:

Is RED allowing you to post TIFFs or is that also not allowed?

Nerd to me is the smart, clever guy in class... not the guy that got bashed.
I got bashed at school almost everyday because I was small and because I was from another country, (seriously) and a very easy target, because I never fort back and I never told on the bullies.
So take no offence my nerd comments as they are more aimed at people more intelligent than I being able to give a more technically polished response.

Robert... Lets hug. lets move onwards and upwards.

Ok...
In regarding wanting R3D's.
I cannot load up the R3D's as I have been instructed not to by RED. Why, because the camera I was using is an unfinished beta camera.

You wont be able to read the R3D's in any of your systems anyway unless you have the beta RCX. Which I cannot share with anyone as I have been instructed not to... why? because it does not have the desired colour science in it as yet and RED don't want to release a build that is still in test beta mode. As they have been burnt before with early releases.

You won't be able to grade the R3D's in any other program other than the beta RCX, So technically what i have shared with you already is currently all I can do from within RCX.

Until RED releases the SDK for Dragon to the world, we then wait until Resolve, base-light , Scratch, Auto desk, Apple colour, and Adobe Speed grade etc etc etc release an update to actually be able to play 6k R3D's.

Now... I promise you this, the moment RCX has been released by RED to the public, and then RED give me permission to upload my raw files. then I will.
But once again, don't hold your breath, because the current beta Dragon camera I used , does not have the latest colour science, does not have the desired IR filtration and does not have the up incoming low pass filter in it so I doubt RED actually want R3D's from this camera actually floating around being judged on, knowing that the images generated from it will be not as good as compared to the release models that we will all someday get.

So in fact... this test was more about depth and range of the new sensor, just to give everyone a taste of the up incoming latitude and DR... not color. As that's still work in progress. And I'm sure you will have plenty of material to grade and test once the finally finished camera is released.

I hope this all makes sense, because Im starting to feel and sound like a broken record.

Thats it from me Robert... I'm all done.

 

[Mark Toia]

It's sort of color baked... and not a RED RAW file...

Lets all wait for RED to allow this to happen. I'm just following a simple request from Jarred.