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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DRAGON - ITS THE REAL DEAL !!!! - (PART 2)

Martin Stevens said:
Thanks Mark.

Any chance that you are going to post any more Dragon imagery etc. into this new thread of yours?
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I'm waiting for the latest DRAGON to come, with the latest colour science... and the new IR lowpass... Then I'll drop some more online... :)
 
Mark Toia said:
It's really weird knowing that clients choose cameras over skills.
Really sad to here this Meryem. I hope it never happens again to you. Good luck mate.

PS... Unless your a rental house, then i understand.
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In this instance, I would have been the rental house. I was working in another capacity on this particular project, in production management, and could have used the double dip...to pay for all these new toys, sensors, and motion mounts, and Rocket upgrades.....

I hope they keep giving you toys to test, Mark, because I am still in awe at how much ground you can cover in such a short time. Give me two days with a Dragon and I'd probably turn around a couple of shots of my cats playing with a box and some bugs in the backyard.....Mark, you gave us the world and threw in the moon, for laughs. Still enjoying the reel, repeatedly.
 
Mark Toia said:
I'm waiting for the latest DRAGON to come, with the latest colour science... and the new IR lowpass... Then I'll drop some more online... :)
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You get all the nice toys :)

Think you missed the Motion Mount in that list... might as well go the whole hog!
 
Mark, I asked you politely a question back in your previous thread and here. If you couldn't answer due to a NDA or something that I could understand with a simple "I can't answer that sorry", but sincerely didn't enjoy the "ignore", in the 3 different places I asked this question. If I was in your position- at least here in reduser- having the privilege to beta test the Dragon, I would at least made an effort to reply to legitimate questions. I was asking about the Old Rocket and transcoding from 6K to 4K prores times compared to the old 5K to 4K prores workflow.

Anyway you do know how to get nice pictures and are an excellent professional. I did enjoy this test. Thank you.
 
Mark,

People are complaining about the blown highlights in many of your shots (the ugly specular highlights etc).

The majority of us know what's happening (basic grade, no fancy things done in post etc)... but to put them to rest, why don't you take 2-3 shots that exhibit those hard clipping highlights and re-grade them more carefully? As if you'd be doing a real-world job. Grade them carefully, post them here and everyone will shut up.

No reason to stick to the fast, basic grade forever - I think the effort won't be much for 2 or 3 shots...

What do you think? I think it's worth it.

Great test, thanks for taking the time Mark!
 
Medavoym said:
Mark,

People are complaining about the blown highlights in many of your shots (the ugly specular highlights etc).

The majority of us know what's happening (basic grade, no fancy things done in post etc)... but to put them to rest, why don't you take 2-3 shots that exhibit those hard clipping highlights and re-grade them more carefully? As if you'd be doing a real-world job. Grade them carefully, post them here and everyone will shut up.

No reason to stick to the fast, basic grade forever - I think the effort won't be much for 2 or 3 shots...

What do you think? I think it's worth it.

Great test, thanks for taking the time Mark!
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+1.
 
Is it possible not to discuss color until the color science is done?

Mark just did an impressive test that shows a lot of capabilities on the new sensor. To begin with, how many people can cover such a big variety of interesting shots that reflect real-life shoots in two days? So I am really thankful for this. There is a lot of work we have to do as a community, constructive and focused.

What I gather is the following:

1. The Dinamic Range is absolutely mind-blowing. This is opening my imagination: what if you add HDRx to these images? Can anyone point me to a frame from a digital motion camera that has more DR? EPIC is the only camera with dual channel capacity. And with DRAGON how far is that going to push the envelope, this is going to bring in images I have never seen before. Lets see them!

2. Flexible ISO. This is an amazing capability as well, as soon as we get our hands on Dragon we will have to do a ton of shooting to determine the best uses. This is going to be a very useful discussion.

3. Resolution. Although we are only seeing small pics and compressed movies, by looking at the wide shots of the city, the details on the tail of the car, the leaves on the forest and the sand on the dog track; I can notice a great deal of detail. If anybody wants to talk about "texture" I think this is where it best applies. Once we get our Dragons, we need 4K output.

4. Noise. With the MX upgrade what we noticed right away was how much cleaner the MX was versus the M sensor. But by looking at how much the sensor was pushed by this test, I am really, really impressed with how clean it is. In order to push the EPIC MX I would suggest shooting with the lowest compression and highest resolution possible, then have the images Debayer at full quality. But the lowest compression ration we got from this test is 8:1. Is this the lowest you can go at 6K?

5. Compression ratios and Media. I am really curious about this aspect for two reasons: First there has to be a limit on the data bandwith that the Epic can record. And Secondly, we need to prepare for media management costs. Media cost is down and data i-o gets faster, but we still need to account and know what were are looking at.
So 2-part question:
How does compression ratios work with 6K, what are the lowest compression ratios? How much data per minute is generated?
And our testing should be: What is the kind of image you get from different ratios. This will be a lot more different for the increase in resolution and the lower noise.

So while I get my dragons, Mark would you mind answering a couple of things:

1. Did you shoot any HDRx? Are you planning on your next test?
2. Did you shoot the same show with different ISO and different apertures? Although what you shot is very telling here.
3. Can you show us a city shot at 4K? Anything!! We would all love to see the detail.
4. What is the lowest Compression ratio you can use? How much data is generated from 6K 8:1 and 6K 17:1?


Lets keep this thread useful.
 
"f4 to 5.6": Thanks for the info on the car shots Mark. Remarkable.

I realize it's early in the game for Dragon, and many "adjustments have yet to be tweaked", but for those of you who are familiar with film and the zone system, this would mean that the car highlights fall on Zone 12. Yikes! Zone 8 was considered max white with detail, Zone 9 ( 4 stops above exposure value) as pure white with zero detail. It would be quite a task to control a Zone 12 (7 stops above exposure value) to retain texture, no matter what darkroom wizardry you employed. And that was black and white film, which has an emulsion much more conducive to such post compensations. Color film is a bit more conservative.

However you skin it, Dragon is looking extraordinary.
 
Sergio Perez said:
Mark, I asked you politely a question back in your previous thread and here. If you couldn't answer due to a NDA or something that I could understand with a simple "I can't answer that sorry", but sincerely didn't enjoy the "ignore", in the 3 different places I asked this question. If I was in your position- at least here in reduser- having the privilege to beta test the Dragon, I would at least made an effort to reply to legitimate questions. I was asking about the Old Rocket and transcoding from 6K to 4K prores times compared to the old 5K to 4K prores workflow.

Anyway you do know how to get nice pictures and are an excellent professional. I did enjoy this test. Thank you.
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Sergio, with all due respect, i think Mark made it abundantly clear with just a cursory reading of his posts, that he really wasn't using a Rocket workflow. Maybe I'm wrong. But there is no need for him to answer questions about Red Rocket if it is obvious that he isn't using a Red Rocket.

I never feel ignored if someone doesn't answer a question I post in this forum. But I always feel thankful when they do. Mark is INSANELY busy and complaints just come across as ungrateful.
 
Elsie N said:
There are a lot of successful and talented people, and that includes others on the forum than Mark Toia, whom you have (unintentionally, I'm sure) more or less dismissed their professionalism by constantly promoting yours. You call them (us) fanboys while in fact they are professionals who react when their methods are challenged. Consider that you are the one who does not tolerate differing views instead of vice versa, as you stated above.
.
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This comment is in NO way directed at any one person here, but what Elsie states is the number one reason I don't post much in the way of technical consideration or otherwise.

When posting to REDuser, the possibility of getting ripped to shreds even when a comment is valid, and part of a real production workflow, is high. And it goes without saying that there are a handful of hyper-technical, hyper-critical posters/speculators that cover all the bases, and the rest of the forum population mostly follows. I guess that is simply human nature, but it seems to discourage or dismiss the value that the other 99% might offer.

Bottom line: Everything is subjective. Even the "laws" of physics are not immutable; however, there appears to be an extremely definite way to define imagery per some REDuser opinions.

Maybe one of the reasons there is so much debate is because individuals are not taking one thing into consideration: the beauty of the RED camera system is that users define what they want, and how they choose to interface with the gear (through modularity) to arrive at their subjective viewpoint. And the captured image is malleable enough to allow for a single image (provided it was acquired with certain things in mind) to be rendered/processed in virtually infinite ways.

Could things be better -- sure. But the manner some of us go about expressing criticisms simply needs to be examined, and softened. Some of the stuff people say on here, would likely get their ass kicked on a set -- OR simply not asked back. I'm not really sure which is worse. Haha.
 
Guys,

You are making good points. We're all looking for a little bit of validation, even if it comes in the form of a smackdown. Sometimes we feel validated when we smack someone else down and get away with it.

As good as these points may be they are unfortunately off topic.

Keep the thread alive please. Stay on target.
 
Mark Toia said:
MY GOD !!!!! Robert... ! Take your skin problems and start your very own thread please.

I've heard enough of your hi and mighty pretentious claims about how amazing your eye is over everyones else's... Take your conversation to a new thread (yours) and then you can carry on all you want.

I don't want this "DRAGON" thread turning ugly and then being turned off again by Mod's (or Jim) all because of one individual !.

Weather you are right or wrong, I don't really care... I turn over millions per year from my work, and I have never every heard anyone complain about skin once... and I'm talking about huge skin care clients that use me who are paranoid about skin !

Please move on..

Thank you.
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Mark: someone said maybe I was color blind, so I said I wasn't, and I know this because I took a test, thats' all. I didn't say it was I was amazing in any way - I referred mostly to a general concensus among our peers, and other far more impressive people than I ever could be, including Deakins, and feedback I get from agencies, directors, colorists and clients, not all of whom are knowledgeable, but some of whom are.

I also never doubted you ability to turn over millions or whatever. You may forget, or, understandably didn't care, but I've complimented you on your work, without reserve, many times, and not just here on Reduser. I'm sure you make way more money than me. I'm also sure you are much more important than I am in this world, way more powerful, way more connected, doubtlessly way more successful, much more respected and invited to far more parties. That's all fine. That doesn't mean I have to agree with all of your aesthetic perceptions and technical choices, nor does it mean that I can't notice certain things that you don't, or be sensitive to them in a way different from you. That doesn't make me better or worse than you, just different.

I'll leave your thread alone. I really meant you nor Red nor anyone else any offense.
 
Mark's Dragon thread is going to have more "parts" to it than Breaking Bad.

Let's try and avoid a "Dragon Part 3", huh.
 
Robert Ruffo New said:
Mark: someone said maybe I was color blind, so I said I wasn't, and I know this because I took a test, thats' all. I didn't say it was I was amazing in any way - I referred mostly to a general concensus among our peers, and other far more impressive people than I ever could be, including Deakins, and feedback I get from agencies, directors, colorists and clients, not all of whom are knowledgeable, but some of whom are.

I also never doubted you ability to turn over millions or whatever. You may forget, or, understandably didn't care, but I've complimented you on your work, without reserve, many times, and not just here on Reduser. I'm sure you make way more money than me. I'm also sure you are much more important than I am in this world, way more powerful, way more connected, doubtlessly way more successful, much more respected and invited to far more parties. That's all fine. That doesn't mean I have to agree with all of your aesthetic perceptions and technical choices, nor does it mean that I can't notice certain things that you don't, or be sensitive to them in a way different from you. That doesn't make me better or worse than you, just different.

I'll leave your thread alone. I really meant you nor Red nor anyone else any offense.
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Fair enough... and you don't have to agree with anything I've shared as that's your god given right.

But lets just move on. You've had your say, I took no offence. But your subject can be sustained on another thread that you can start. And I'm sure António Fagundes will gladly follow you.

I'm starting to get people emailing me directly Dragon questions, as they don't want to post here on this thread due to the direction its heading in. Which is unfair to them and others

Moving forward... Thank you Robert.
 
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Elsie N said:
There are a lot of successful and talented people, and that includes others on the forum than Mark Toia, whom you have (unintentionally, I'm sure) more or less dismissed their professionalism by constantly promoting yours. You call them (us) fanboys while in fact they are professionals who react when their methods are challenged. Consider that you are the one who does not tolerate differing views instead of vice versa, as you stated above.
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This is complete revisionism of the conversation. People made polite requests about whether or not skin tones were better. Instead of saying "No, they are the same which is to say if you like them they're still great, if you don't like them then they haven't changed." or "Yes, the color is different, whether or not it's better or worse is up to you" You and others accused Rob of being color blind, , implied that's it's all in people's heads and claimed that Red is effectively perfect and doesn't need to change a thing. Numerous people have said that if you have a problem with skin tones you don't know what you're doing etc because (Insert flawed argument about being rich therefore the color is perfect etc...) Complaining that the people who ask about skin tones are being mean and insulting is completely flipping the situation.

You don't get to call people blind and stupid and then complain that they aren't treating you with respect in return. Don't be a bully and then complain when the kid hits back.
 
Bill Anderson said:
Mark's Dragon thread is going to have more "parts" to it than Breaking Bad.

Let's try and avoid a "Dragon Part 3", huh.
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Dragon 3: The Dragoning. :D
 
It's like the Summer of Sam on the forum. DRAGON is bringing a heatwave along with it. :)

Much love guys. Seriously.
 
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