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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon Flare

Dang! Anyone want to buy a full set of IRND's ;-)
 
Josh Beadle said:
Hey Phil,
Amazing work Mate! Maybe I missed it but what are you recommending for IRND brand and model for Dragon? I'm currently using the Schneider Platinum IRND series.
Thank you for the efforts for our benefit!
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As Evin said, just plain old regular NDs are all Dragon desires.

Tested a few brands now and I know some interesting new ones are coming in a few months. All seem to perform well.

Personally I avoid resin filters, but that's just me.


Roberto Lequeux said:
Love it. Looks like everything turned out perfect.

Thank you Phil for the posts!
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So far so good! White balance is a smidge different between the OLPFs and calibrations, but beyond the image is much improved.

Doing some fairly hardcore tests tomorrow involving dynamic range. Should be interesting.
 
Phil,
Generally, especially in straight daylight or tungsten situations I don't white balance, but I've been using IRND's. Would you say that with the Dragon I can continue to not white balance and get away with straight ND's?
Thanks, as always, Steve
 
steve green said:
Phil,
Generally, especially in straight daylight or tungsten situations I don't white balance, but I've been using IRND's. Would you say that with the Dragon I can continue to not white balance and get away with straight ND's?
Thanks, as always, Steve
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Yep. However, and this is a big one. I have tested nearly all manufacturer's ND filters and multiple copies in some cases.

ND filters are supposed to be "neutral", but upon reading their values with a calibrated source there are some fairly interesting "manufacturing tolerances".

For instance, I have several brands here at the hut, and if I put several 0.9s up side by side the white balance is slightly different between each and every single one. Sometimes even filters from the same manufacturer. They essentially drift from neutral-ish through warm and cool. They tend to not swing more than 1000 kelvin and I imagine that's the target tolerance by most manufacturers to be within. It's pretty easy if you have a bunch in front of you and hold them up to light or place them on an bright lightbox to compare the color shift side by side.

This has always been the case and if you can manage to land a set of matched filters you hold onto them forever, like some of the top DPs who have magic boxes of filtration I see around town.

I strongly believe we will see several manufacturers this year make an attempt at truly "neutral" density filtration now that IR contamination has been solved particularly with Red cameras.
 
Phil Holland said:
I strongly believe we will see several manufacturers this year make an attempt at truly "neutral" density filtration now that IR contamination has been solved particularly with Red cameras.
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Arri has already solved it with their new cameras, they have internal neutral ND's.
 
Phil Holland said:
As Evin said, just plain old regular NDs are all Dragon desires.

Tested a few brands now and I know some interesting new ones are coming in a few months. All seem to perform well.

Personally I avoid resin filters, but that's just me.
Click to expand...

Any harm in using the Platinum IRND with Dragon? They are solid with MX
 
Phil is king!.

i allways tried to avoid using ir-filters unless i really needed them, which was rarer than one could suspect. used to not treat skin too nice imho. interesting how red has got rid of ir and get lovely skintones.
 
KETCH ROSSi said:
This thread has taken so many turns I forgot to THANK Phil again for the nice test on the new OLPF... Or have I done it already.?

Either way.. Great job Phil!!
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Cheers Ketch!


Josh Beadle said:
Any harm in using the Platinum IRND with Dragon? They are solid with MX
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"Harm" is an interesting word. Here's pretty much what you need to know.

If you are using traditional IRNDs, meaning the ones with a green tint you can "get away" with shooting with those as a white balance/tint adjustment solves the color shift. You will see an effect on overall color however, so if precision is important to you go regular ND.

If you are using Hot Mirror/IRND Combo Filters, you'll have a stronger tint and more color contamination.

Overall, based on everything I've seen up to this moment go with regular NDs "if color is important to you". And it should be! Red kinda did a good job on this.
 
Thanks RED Brother!

Would enjoy a Dragon/ND test under different lighting conditions. I own K5600, LitePanels, Arri hots, a San Diego studio and a soon to be upgraded Dragon. Would volunteer equipment and time to the cause just to hang out with the real Dr Phil ;-)
 
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Huge improvement! I'm probably twice as excited for Dragon now based on your tests Phil. Many thanks for executing a comparison test so thoroughly and methodically.
 
Josh Beadle said:
Thanks RED Brother!

Would enjoy a Dragon/ND test under different lighting conditions. I own K5600, LitePanels, Arri hots, a San Diego studio and a soon to be upgraded Dragon. Would volunteer equipment and time to the cause just to hang out with the real Dr Phil ;-)
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Thanks Josh. Just replied to your other thread here:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?112383-Dragon-Lens-Coverage-Sticky

Heh. I need to grow an impressive mustache to earn that moniker.

I've tested HMI, Tungsten (Arri 1K/2K), and Daylight LED here at the studio with the new OLPF. Posted a few samples before. I have a few more coming.

Long and the short of it is regular NDs are what you want.


Gavin Greenwalt said:
Huge improvement! I'm probably twice as excited for Dragon now based on your tests Phil. Many thanks for executing a comparison test so thoroughly and methodically.
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Cheers Gavin.


For those tracking this thread I did and am doing into the night some DR tests on the new OLPF/Calibration. Should have some interesting results in a bit.
 
Great times to be a reduser!

It have been questions about if you could use the new olpf on the mx. Is there a official answer to this yet if its dragon only?

Keep up the good work!
 
Joel Arvidsson said:
Great times to be a reduser!

It have been questions about if you could use the new olpf on the mx. Is there a official answer to this yet if its dragon only?

Keep up the good work!
Click to expand...

Different sensor = Different OLPF = No
 
Phil one thing I would like to see is to match clip points on Dragon and MX to see where the rest of the range falls. Ditto with the noise floor. I'm seeing a lot of Dragon tests where the gray point is matched but that's not generally how I expose.
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
Phil one thing I would like to see is to match clip points on Dragon and MX to see where the rest of the range falls. Ditto with the noise floor. I'm seeing a lot of Dragon tests where the gray point is matched but that's not generally how I expose.
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I find myself in the odd situation where I have two Dragons and no MX on hand (Alanis Morissette song?), but here's a thought on this. We utilize the 18% gray standard industry wide as that gives us a uniform and control to start from. Industry wide we use it in meters and also it's essentially good reference relative to lighter and darker skin tones, which is more or less what people are after most of the time.

Measuring the total DR of a system gives you the safe working zone within a given exposure based on 18% Gray, a midtone, or relative to general skintones. Exposing purely off of clipping values can often lead to underexposure of subject matter. Not saying you're doing this all the time because I often expose this way too. Just depends on what I'm doing. Same deal when taking readings with a meter.

I see what you're after in terms of matching clipping points, or rather exposing within clip with both sensors. That puts 18% gray and skin in different locations essentially. And the one thing we've already seen from the MX/Dragon samples is the denser more detailed shadows (which also means more Dynamic Range), this would only create more of a separation between the two.

That said, I have one thing I'd like to show tonight. And it is indeed provocative.


After a few days of testing the new OLPF I found myself thinking about something.

Mainly this image:

Jarred Land said:
1357064610.jpg
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Now I know how that was created and I think I have a bead on a Xyla 21 down here in LA, so this might happen in the near future.

The above graphic as far as I know was produced sans color science and calibration tweaks and made back in late 2012. Red stated that we would be getting "part" of that possible dynamic range once the color science and calibration was worked out. Now that we have the new calibration and we have the new OLPF. What does the camera "see?"

That's essentially what's been jumping around in my mind.

Been shooting weird charts now and have tested Dynamic Range with the new OLPF and Calibration in a few different ways. Finding some interesting variances along the way.

Sekonic EPTII Chart.



I'm focused on what we can actually see and use. And also measure. Recently I've seen people discuss "captured dynamic range" and "usable dynamic range". That's an interesting conversation in itself.

In these following graphics you should get a general idea for both though.

Stipulations here first. This is with the latest calibration on with the new OLPF, which has changed things a bit. These were created using REDcolor3/REDlogFilm with and without curves applied as I've been finding the most success of extracting the most out of Dragon this way currently. Linear also has a lot of chocolaty goodness, but most don't work that way.

Each square is one stop apart. Exposure was achieved through one stop increments. Base exposure derived from 18% Gray. Note images will have noise outside of Black Shading Calibration. That's not the point of this particular test. What you are looking for though is clear tonal separation. And you can count it.


Red Dragon REDcolor3/REDlogFilm 21 Step - No S-Curve.




Red Dragon REDcolor3/REDlogFilm 21 Step - With S-Curve.



That's clipped in the first square btw.

Essentially this is what Dragon sees and how it sees it under the current/newest calibration that cameras will be receiving with the new OLPF is installed.

Personal note. Charts don't make compelling motion pictures. Shooting controlled wedge patches also doesn't exactly happen in real life either, which is one reason why I think the Xyla test will be interesting as other chaos can occur utilizing that method. However, what these charts can do is illuminate how the camera system, sensor, and calibration works. Which can inform an individuals exposure choices down the line.
 
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