Dragon and Leica lenses...

[Ketch Rossi]

David,

besides the obvious FF Still glass from Canon and Nikon, what would your opinion be in trying to use Medium Still Format glass such as the Leica S series?


Your opinion not on the quality as I know that very well, and they are one of the out most superior Still glass ever made, but much to the actual effect to the Smaller Dragon sensor, that I like your opinion ion it very much.

BTW, even so the Leica S series are a Medium Format Still lenses, then Leica S2 has only a 58mm Diagonal Image Circle to be covered, The Leica S2 Sensor is 30x45, and this lenses were made for it, if that does matter at all.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I'll save my opinion until I try those lenses myself -- my main concern is brand consistency as a renter, not an owner who gets to know his gear forward and backwards. As a renter, to some degree you have to rely on a set of lenses being of known quality worldwide, even though you still test and prep them.

Also, I'm not the one who has to pull-focus on them so the mechanics of these different lenses in terms of focus-pulling or rigging to remote focus devices, etc. is better described by a 1st AC who has to make them work. We've discussed the issues with cine versus still lenses in the past in terms of their mechanics.

 

[Peter Majtan]

Ketch,
Master Primes actually cover 6K from 25mm on:

I just LOVE those Master Primes!!

Coverage is one thing - IQ (image quality) is another. With Dragon we enter world where sensors larger then S35 starts to utilize the edge areas of cine lenses that were never designed to be used in the first place. It is not secret that all lenses lose their IQ as we move further out of the center. The higher quality glass keeps the IQ with minimal (or negligent) falloff all the way to the edge of S35. But you will be surprised how quick the MFT curves dive towards the bottom once you are out of the S35 coverage. So just because the image circle on cinema-designed lenses cover the Dragon, further tests for IQ falloff are needed to really evaluate the use of cine glass for full frame coverage of the Dragon sensor. This is where good quality FF35 still glass will have great advantage optically. Now all we need is to fix the mechanics... ;o)

:sifone: Peter

 

[Nick Morrison]

Coverage is one thing - IQ (image quality) is another. With Dragon we enter world where sensors larger then S35 starts to utilize the edge areas of cine lenses that were never designed to be used in the first place. It is not secret that all lenses lose their IQ as we move further out of the center. The higher quality glass keeps the IQ with minimal (or negligent) falloff all the way to the edge of S35. But you will be surprised how quick the MFT curves dive towards the bottom once you are out of the S35 coverage. So just because the image circle on cinema-designed lenses cover the Dragon, further tests for IQ falloff are needed to really evaluate the use of cine glass for full frame coverage of the Dragon sensor. This is where good quality FF35 still glass will have great advantage optically. Now all we need is to fix the mechanics... ;o)

:sifone: Peter

This is why MEDIUM FORMAT glass is also so interesting. I just had a full set of Hasselblads cine-modded by Peter at RP lens, and he reported back they are some the sharpest primes he's ever seen (after doing a quick chart test). Presumably because you're shooting through a tiny fraction of the image circle (the very center of the lens), you are getting OPTIMAL performance with MF glass (no fall off, no vignetting, no distortion, etc).

MF glass can be a little soft WO (if you look at the MTF charts, a 2.8 Hassy often performs like a 1.4 or F2 FULL FRAME prime wide open). But stopped down, they are excellent. Some even rival or surpass Full Frame glass!!! (I'm thinking of the Hassy 50 2.8 and 110 f2 for example)

Looking forward to using these on Dragon!!!

 

[Savva Svet]

This is why MEDIUM FORMAT glass is also so interesting. I just had a full set of Hasselblads cine-modded by Peter at RP lens, and he reported back they are some the sharpest primes he's ever seen (after doing a quick chart test). Presumably because you're shooting through a tiny fraction of the image circle (the very center of the lens), you are getting OPTIMAL performance with MF glass (no fall off, no vignetting, no distortion, etc).

MF glass can be a little soft WO (if you look at the MTF charts, a 2.8 Hassy often performs like a 1.4 or F2 FULL FRAME prime wide open). But stopped down, they are excellent. Some even rival or surpass Full Frame glass!!! (I'm thinking of the Hassy 50 2.8 and 110 f2 for example)

Looking forward to using these on Dragon!!!

Nick...always managing to bring up those Zeiss Contax lenses, in some context or another

 

[Nick Morrison]

Nick...always managing to bring up those Zeiss Contax lenses, in some context or another

Hasselblads and Contax do have similar renderings yes (similar Zeiss T coating from similar period), but massive image circle on the Hasseblads is very, very interesting on it's own. We shot these portraits Scarlet 4k. Imagine them Dragon 6k?

 

[Phil Holland]

Less panic folks. Read my expanded notes on Summilux-C coverage please.

 

[Steven Dean]

Nonetheless if RED was to build a RED Leica S2 Mount, I would be the first one on board...

I am with Ketch on this, really hoping for a Leica S mount.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

I'll save my opinion until I try those lenses myself -- my main concern is brand consistency as a renter, not an owner who gets to know his gear forward and backwards. As a renter, to some degree you have to rely on a set of lenses being of known quality worldwide, even though you still test and prep them.

Also, I'm not the one who has to pull-focus on them so the mechanics of these different lenses in terms of focus-pulling or rigging to remote focus devices, etc. is better described by a 1st AC who has to make them work. We've discussed the issues with cine versus still lenses in the past in terms of their mechanics.

Yes David, totally agree with there, this is more of a question about the actual coverage of the Medium Format lenses, and specifically the Leica S series which were made for a smaller Medium Format sensor then the Hasselblad Maimya etc.

Mainly was curious of your opinion, and what this lenses would mean in use on theS35 sensor such as the Dragon...


Mechanic aside, as of that we are all well aware of, and for this reason, despite how good the Leica Summilux C. Primes are, to me the Master Primes still rule because of their incredibly well tough out build, and the fact that are about a decade old lenses, yet still king in the rental world of Cinema.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I respect your opinion Ketch, and agree that in some respects the Zeiss Master Primes are king. That said, in order to get top performance from the MPs you need a proper lens tech and, when needed, a very expensive re-calibration. I would also point out that gauging popularity in the rental world will be a more meaningful metric once there are more Leica Summilux-C sets in inventory ;-)

Cheers - #19

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Absolutely Blair,

that is also because they are an old design, I am most confident that the new Zeiss Master Ana do not have that issue, but also with such an investment in lenses, I would not expect the buyer, or rental company not to be aware of it, and take the best care possible of such an investment.


But I also know that before the Leica truly can get a fair share o f the market, need to bring more focal, yet I trust they will, and as I love their lenses I will most welcome them.

Yet there is a desperate need for new Glass with a larger Image circle now that we have Dragon...

If Zeiss is in the works for a new set of Master Primes, of modern design, and or Mini's will remain to be discovered, but for now I agree with Jim on the fact that the Leica's offer the absolute best image quality.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

At least with anamorphic, most lenses are designed to cover the 18mm height of 4-perf 35mm so would cover the height of the Dragon sensor. They don't have to cover the width since you only use a 1.20 : 1 area of the sensor for 2X anamorphic photography to get a 2.40 : 1 image.

 

[Björn Benckert]

At least with anamorphic, most lenses are designed to cover the 18mm height of 4-perf 35mm so would cover the height of the Dragon sensor. They don't have to cover the width since you only use a 1.20 : 1 area of the sensor for 2X anamorphic photography to get a 2.40 : 1 image.

True, But I really would love to shoot some banners or such with dragon FF and anamorphic's I know our 50mm hawk-C covers MX FF so I hope it covers also the dragon FF. As those wide strip images, about 32:9 in aspect, looks so darn nice.

check: http://www.syndicate.se/Files/~usr/hawk/A004_C005_0616YK.50mm 5k.jpg

 

[Christopher Probst]

I respect your opinion Ketch, and agree that in some respects the Zeiss Master Primes are king. That said, in order to get top performance from the MPs you need a proper lens tech and, when needed, a very expensive re-calibration. I would also point out that gauging popularity in the rental world will be a more meaningful metric once there are more Leica Summilux-C sets in inventory ;-)

Cheers - #19

You imply here by contrast that the Leicas are easier to service than Master Primes... However, with their compound-aspheric design, I assure you they are NOT!

 

[paul engstrom]

You imply here by contrast that the Leicas are easier to service than Master Primes... However, with their compound-aspheric design, I assure you they are NOT!

Copy that. Our tech is telling us quite more difficult/expensive to maintain the Leica Summilux C set than Master Primes. Be warned.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

You imply here by contrast that the Leicas are easier to service than Master Primes... However, with their compound-aspheric design, I assure you they are NOT!

Not my intention at all Christopher, not my intention at all, and I didn't see how I did that, as in fact it is obvious to me the contrary, of course I can now see how not specifying it as not every one that knows Cine lenses of the complexity of the MP's and Leica S.C. Primes, could not understand that.

I ran calibration to my personal set of Master Primes, at every time I traveled, Leica will be just the same, but with added cost as to their newer more complex design, what I wanted ot imply was in fact that any and all Cine Lenses should get cleaned calibrated, maintained properly after each job prior going back to an other.

That is the nature of Pro gear, and lenses are at the very top of the maintenance list.

 

[Christopher Probst]

Ketch, How did I say you DID? I quoted Blair in my post... Your post above makes zero sense to me. Did you even READ my post that it was addressed to Blair? Or am I lose my fucking mind here?

 

[Aaron McLane]

The biggest danger to all glass is shipping / air travel and dipshit AC's. All glass should be hand carried at all times. As far as bad AC's it would be good to have a list.... specifically who's the genius who let a brand new set of Leica's get completely submerged in a swamp while shooting Pirates 4?

 

[Stirling Bancroft]

I don't know the Pirates story but this sounds like a witch hunt. Why not just interview and get references for new AC's you use? I don't think we have much to gain by a list like that and you could be ending someones career on the net. Let incompetent Ac's end their careers on their own.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Ketch, How did I say you DID? I quoted Blair in my post... Your post above makes zero sense to me. Did you even READ my post that it was addressed to Blair? Or am I lose my fucking mind here?

He he, I indeed tough of it been quoted by you to me, but now reading it again I see that you indeed addressed Blair by quoting what HE wrote in reply to me...

Either way, my answer was in regards that I tough I misled with my previous post, and for that I explained as I replied, could have been addressed to any one really, but sorry for the misunderstanding Christopher.