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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DJI RONIN - independent review and in-depth test

Sabyasachi, the RONIN was designed to support heavier and larger cameras such as fully-kitted RED's, ALEXA's, etc... As such the design is perfect and the weight simply comes with it. I have explained earlier in this thread why you really can't make it much lighter and still have the same capabilities...
This is just a first product in the "handheld" gimbals category from DJI.
Just go to this page and scroll down to gimbals...:

http://www.dji.com/products/expert

DJI is the leader in this field with years of experience and various solutions from the tiniest H3-3D for GoPro - all the way to the heavy-lifters for cameras like the 5D mk.II / mk.III with the Zenmuse Z15 (http://www.dji.com/product/zenmuse-z15-5d).
I am sure we will progressively see these gimbals adopted for hand-held use and they will offer variety of camera payload capabilities and the respective weights.
Ronin was designed to fill a big hole in the market at the professional end to cater the film industry and its requirements to handle heavier and larger cameras.
Sure they could have just made a "lite" version of the Ronin that could handle only very basic stripped-down configurations of the RED cameras - but there are plenty of choices in the market for that - including the MOVI-M10...
I am sure we will eventually see such a (lite) model, but I am sure it is not high on their priority list.
My (wild) guess is that next they will adopt the Z15 for 5D and make a hand-held version similar to Ronin, as there is massive demand from indie filmmakers using the venerable 5D's.
Same gimbal will most likely also handle the likes of GH4 and similar cameras in the +/- 3 kg range.
Only then I would look at making the "lite" version of the Ronin for payloads around 5 kg.
But again - this is just my (wild) guess...

The Ronin is not for everyone. But it also doesn't require Arnold's to operate it. Many hand-held / shoulder mount configurations exceed 10 kg without any gimbals what so ever.
They certainly have back with the RED ONE - and yet thousands have purchased and hand-held those cameras...

If you are on your own out in the wilderness all day and need to carry all your gear - you won't find a gimbal solution for RED that would allow you to do that.
Even the light-weight MOVI is operated in a manner where you need to hand off the rig to your AC, or mount it on a stand between takes.

So if you really are doing long trekking and mountain climbing and need 3-axis stabilised gimbal - I would recommend you look at using the Canon 5D and many of the light-weight gimbals on the market...

:sifone: Peter
 
I think folk are missing the point no matter it being 1kg to whatever weight holding it in the position the gimbal is held is not natural. Over time you get muscle fatigue and gravity intervenes. I understand you might get another 5 minutes out of shooting if it was X kg before fatigue sets in. But is it worth the extra £ / $ ?

The solution that was discussed early with the EasyRig and Serene to lift the weight and eliminate the vertical damping is good but it will be expensive. I’m sure DJI can have a look at this and bring out an accessory for a lot less which will hold the weight like the EasyRig and sort the vertical stabilisation out. Can we do it with another motor or a damper like in a cars suspension? It’s not rocket science or is it?

It would have been a cleaner solution if DJI embedded all the cables inside the frame. You can still see the cable running into the yaw motor and also the IMU / DTap / USB power cable at the front. Plus have power for accessories on the carbon fibre handle bar. Or even have power where the battery sits, is there power there? I like the fact they have thought through the battery solution unlike other gimbals which just use RC batteries. Also the quick release / tool less setup. Plus the app to set up the PID values. Maybe in Ronin 2 they will add a feature to auto physical balance of the camera. Then all you’ll have to do is slide the camera into the mount on the gimbal and press an app button. All the physical and logical adjustments will happen, maybe one day…
 
Alen Watts said:
The solution that was discussed early with the EasyRig and Serene to lift the weight and eliminate the vertical damping is good but it will be expensive. I’m sure DJI can have a look at this and bring out an accessory for a lot less which will hold the weight like the EasyRig and sort the vertical stabilisation out. Can we do it with another motor or a damper like in a cars suspension? It’s not rocket science or is it?
Click to expand...

Hello. I will lay down my thoughts on this , and Iam sure Peter knows what Iam talking about.

Solving the vertical stabilization is not as simple as you think it is. Any spring or bungee would add some elasticity for sure, but unfortunately the math behind footstep absorption, is not as easily done, and the key is to make a very responsive with as low pull/push force as possible to make this work. and this take a lot of math and geometry to be able to do this specially for higher loads. If you just add a spring mechanism it will probably work for the running shots in a degree, but not for walking. While walking the error is much more difficult to handle and in most cases the total rig will move and hip hop together with your body and it will take a lot of effort to keep it in place.

and thats why this is a challenge and I have been working 24/7 to make this as good as possible and responsive.

so its not just a matter of put something elastic in between. it has to support your load and at the same time have very low spring spring rate , and this is very tricky.

Easyrig and Serene is not that expensive and many operators already own easyrigs, as there are 1000s around in rental places and also privet owners.

kind regards

Constantine
 
constantine Tirintzis said:
Hello. I will lay down my thoughts on this , and Iam sure Peter knows what Iam talking about.

Solving the vertical stabilization is not as simple as you think it is. Any spring or bungee would add some elasticity for sure, but unfortunately the math behind footstep absorption, is not as easily done, and the key is to make a very responsive with as low pull/push force as possible to make this work. and this take a lot of math and geometry to be able to do this specially for higher loads. If you just add a spring mechanism it will probably work for the running shots in a degree, but not for walking. While walking the error is much more difficult to handle and in most cases the total rig will move and hip hop together with your body and it will take a lot of effort to keep it in place.

and thats why this is a challenge and I have been working 24/7 to make this as good as possible and responsive.

so its not just a matter of put something elastic in between. it has to support your load and at the same time have very low spring spring rate , and this is very tricky.

Easyrig and Serene is not that expensive and many operators already own easyrigs, as there are 1000s around in rental places and also privet owners.

kind regards

Constantine
Click to expand...


Hi Constantine,

I do not disrespect your work that you are doing or have done in this field.

The point I was trying to make is, this is nothing new and has been solved in other areas or fields. Like for example in the automobile industry- some cars use active suspension in order for this active suspension to work there is a control system in there somewhere which provides feedback to correct and smooth out bumps etc. These guys have done a lot of maths / geometry and even calculus. In fact even created computer models to replicate different scenarios- formula 1 to rallying creates different types of vertical motion challenges, which have been solved.

The Ronin has a control system together with the IMUs and optical encoders to correct its position- in this case stabilising camera footage. A electronic system which has already being used in another field can easily be re-engineered to solve this problem- smooth out vertical motion. Why create the wheel again if it’s already out there?

In the UK the EasyRig cost near £2500, that is nearly another Ronin as the Ronin retails here at £3000.

Kind Regards,

Alen
 
Alen Watts said:
Hi Constantine,

I do not disrespect your work that you are doing or have done in this field.

The point I was trying to make is, this is nothing new and has been solved in other areas or fields. Like for example in the automobile industry- some cars use active suspension in order for this active suspension to work there is a control system in there somewhere which provides feedback to correct and smooth out bumps etc. These guys have done a lot of maths / geometry and even calculus. In fact even created computer models to replicate different scenarios- formula 1 to rallying creates different types of vertical motion challenges, which have been solved.

The Ronin has a control system together with the IMUs and optical encoders to correct its position- in this case stabilising camera footage. A electronic system which has already being used in another field can easily be re-engineered to solve this problem- smooth out vertical motion. Why create the wheel again if it’s already out there?

In the UK the EasyRig cost near £2500, that is nearly another Ronin as the Ronin retails here at £3000.

Kind Regards,



Alen
Click to expand...
Sure totally understand, its just that automotive and smart systems do not apply on this field, and the main reason is the weight versus the result. For example you can make a motor system for sure that can correct this and together with springs can do a good job, problem is , the motors have to be very strong, and very big, nothing like the ronin or any other gimbal motors. Space limitations, weight limitations, power limitations and all that to be housed in a smart ergonomic design. Its a very different factors applying to those two technologies. I can do this for motion control but the motors are enormous. the application si very different and the available space or all those things is next to nothing. Would you for example use a system that I could make to stabilize vertical motion motorise with an excess weight of 10kgr? however 10kg is nothing for a car application even 100 is acceptable. And how about power for this? Iam just saying that to fit an elephant inside a matchbox isnt easy at present time. There are people like Alex from alex mos that did a similar device adding a 4th axis with a motor, but... for a 200gram camera. so yes its possible , but not with the available technology ..

As about price I understand. But dont forget man, you are handling a 40k camera here. So I understand the price limitations but its a pro market. Bargains are good but not always the best choice for everything.

Kind regards
 
Alen Watts said:
...In the UK the EasyRig cost near £2500, that is nearly another Ronin as the Ronin retails here at £3000...
Click to expand...

Very true you wind up doubling the cost to about $8,000 with EasyRig and Ronin and that is about the cost of entry-level steadicam systems out there.
 
constantine Tirintzis said:
As about price I understand. But dont forget man, you are handling a 40k camera here. So I understand the price limitations but its a pro market. Bargains are good but not always the best choice for everything.

Kind regards
Click to expand...

I think it's about time customers stood up to the 'PRO' market. If you make a product and add PRO at the end that doesn't mean you should charge 10 times the price! Personally I think this is disgraceful and outright greed. But that’s the way things are and large production houses / film companies will pay (e.g. Movi). If people pay these prices then it's always going to be the way it has been. Just my two cents!

I hear what you are saying about my suggestion; I'll look forward to trying your design.

Cheers.
 
Guys easyrig has been around for ages. Can it be better? sure it can. Can it follow technology? yes again. But dont forget there are 100s of rental places and people that have large numbers of it, and there a 1000s of operators working daily with it and saved their backs. So its a yes and a no.

Dont compare steadicam work and steadicam with this. Because an entry level steadicam is excactly that ..entry level, just like a 600 usd gimbal . and a 1000 usd DSLR for a camera.

but you got a Ronin instead and an Epic. Its down to personal taste if you ask me. And what projects you shoot. then you adjust accordingly.

kind regards
 
Alen Watts said:
I think it's about time customers stood up to the 'PRO' market. If you make a product and add PRO at the end that doesn't mean you should charge 10 times the price! Personally I think this is disgraceful and outright greed. But that’s the way things are and large production houses / film companies will pay (e.g. Movi). If people pay these prices then it's always going to be the way it has been. Just my two cents!

I hear what you are saying about my suggestion; I'll look forward to trying your design.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

That is a big discussion. for another thread. lets not take over this one which is about the Ronin.
Feel free to start it I will contribute .

Kind regards
 
Talking about price and value (which can't be separated) - the Ronin costs about as much as a branded mechanical follow-focus (not wireless), despite of being very much a PRO piece of equipment stuffed with very sofisticated electronics and made with precise high-quality machining of the highest industry standards. If Freefly would have made it, my guess is that it will cost over $25K...
It is hard to really comprehend the immense value of this stabilizer...
Even a Ronin combo with Easy Rig and Serene will cost less then branded mechanical follow-focus and matte-box systems that do not contain any electronics what so ever...
Back in 2009 when I've lived in LA - my now wife drove me to meet a fellow REDUSER member from whom I was buying used ARRI FF4 follow focus (without case or accessories) for $ 3500,-. Tomoko looked at me in amazement and said she paid less for the Ford Focus she was driving me in. It really hit me then and there that established brands can get away with murder in our industry...

Go figure...

:sifone: Peter
 
talking about price and weight(which can't be separated): Many are willing to pay 18k to loose a pound of weight between a carbon and a epic dragon, mainly for flying on drones and handheld gimbals ... if the final version of the ronin weighs in at 9 pounds without a camera then users need to weigh the cost. Fly it for 5 min fully weighted before you make the jump. Sure you can use an easy rig but thats kinda a buzz kill on what a handheld gimbal could be. The extra money may hurt on the front end but the extra weight will hurt a bit longer.

btw I have an FF4 and next to my epics its one of the best investments I have made in this industry. after 4 years of abuse and hundreds of jobs its as good as the day I bought it. Lesser follow focus would have died long ago. My occonor CFF1 has been back for service twice and is on its last leg. The FF4 gets away with murder because job after job it kills it.
 
Peter's second test video combined with the Ronin's price point persuaded me to buy one for myself even though I never thought I would need one. Usually I would hire a SteadiCam operator if I was directing a video that required camera motion but why should the SteadiCam operator have all the fun when I could do the shot myself with a 5 minute system setup? Ownership means I can use it on my own projects too without having to worry about any stabilization system's rental and operator fees. That's huge for me!

A system that gets the job done in a professional way can be called PRO in my book without the need of a 'PRO' price tag attached to it. I have payed crazy money in the past for 'PRO' accessories/equipment only because there was no choice. I knew then as I definitely know now that I could have the same functionality with 2 or 3 times less the expense.

I will have to agree with Peter that the DJI Ronin system's value for money looks like a proposition you can't refuse if you are into this type of thing.
 
Miltos Pilalitos said:
Peter's second test video combined with the Ronin's price point persuaded me to buy one for myself even though I never thought I would need one. Usually I would hire a SteadiCam operator if I was directing a video that required camera motion but why should the SteadiCam operator have all the fun when I could do the shot myself with a 5 minute system setup? Ownership means I can use it on my own projects too without having to worry about any stabilization system's rental and operator fees. That's huge for me!

A system that gets the job done in a professional way can be called PRO in my book without the need of a 'PRO' price tag attached to it. I have paid crazy money in the past for 'PRO' accessories/equipment only because there was no choice. I knew then as I definitely know now that I could have the same functionality with 2 or 3 times less the expense.

I will have to agree with Peter that the DJI Ronin system's value for money looks like a proposition you can't refuse if you are into this type of thing.
Click to expand...

Yes and no, there is true both ways , depending on the equipment. You will never be disappointed if you buy a PRO GPI arm, vest and sled, and its worth every penny, because thats a proven case , that you will never change it for years. same goes for other equipment. Now tested equipment with established companies and a knowledge --able professional on his field , make a good combination

However the point is that spending 4k on a gimbal, and another 5k on a support system that makes sense and helps you overcome trouble, is not a big deal for a professional that puts his 40k epic on it. Thats my 2 cents. Test what you buy if you can ,before you buy it as long as you have the knowledge to do so. Because noone can test for example a steadicam device if he is no steadicam operator and tell the difference apart of looks and aesthetics.

you have to have the experience to use the equipment to judge wisely, and sometimes that is hard as well.

kind regards
 
richard peterson said:
talking about price and weight(which can't be separated): Many are willing to pay 18k to loose a pound of weight between a carbon and a epic dragon, mainly for flying on drones and handheld gimbals ... if the final version of the ronin weighs in at 9 pounds without a camera then users need to weigh the cost. Fly it for 5 min fully weighted before you make the jump. Sure you can use an easy rig but thats kinda a buzz kill on what a handheld gimbal could be. The extra money may hurt on the front end but the extra weight will hurt a bit longer.

btw I have an FF4 and next to my epics its one of the best investments I have made in this industry. after 4 years of abuse and hundreds of jobs its as good as the day I bought it. Lesser follow focus would have died long ago. My occonor CFF1 has been back for service twice and is on its last leg. The FF4 gets away with murder because job after job it kills it.
Click to expand...

Richard - I really don't think I can make my point more clearly...:

In my honest opinion there is simply no way that DJI could have shaved any weight from the gimbal WITHOUT sacrificing its functionality - whether that be the amazing payload, or physical ability to handle larger cameras.
If they could - they would have done it in the first place...

The longest take I have done so far is about 10 min.
I can comfortably film 2~3 min takes and then rest the gimbal on its stand for a minute before filming another take.
Director / DP would usually take longer then that to comment about previous take and give an instructions for the next one...
If I need to film 5+ min take - I would let it rest on the stand for about 2~3 min between takes.
Every hour I would like to take about 5 min break and like that I could roll on proper 7+1 hour working day.
Also don't forget that it is rare for the whole day to be filming with the gimbal (or Steadicam for that matter). Moving shots are usually in between other types of shots - whether that be tripod, or any other grip...
This fits perfectly within industry standards and still provides massive productivity boost when you have a lots of shots with moving camera...

About the FF4 - there is no denying that it is an amazing workhorse. The issue here is the profit margin on such a products. That is what I was referring to as "getting away with murder"...
There are car manufacturers who make an entire car for the cost of the FF4...
Similar issue with the CN-E lenses from Canon and a plethora of other products. Profit margins in excess of 100% are nothing more then greed IMHO. For many of these products you can add 's behind the 100...

:sifone: Peter
 
Peter, any estimate on when your custom V-mount might be available? I'd hate to receive the Ronin and not be able to shoot :)
 
Petri Teittinen said:
Peter, any estimate on when your custom V-mount might be available? I'd hate to receive the Ronin and not be able to shoot :)
Click to expand...

It really depends on how soon you will receive your Ronin. My battery solution will be available next month in the second half. Limited quantities first...
I will post pics and details when it is ready - aiming before end of this month...

:sifone: Peter
 
Peter Majtan said:
It really depends on how soon you will receive your Ronin.
Click to expand...
Haven't got the foggiest, actually. The dealer's been quiet since I paid the deposit.

My battery solution will be available next month in the second half. Limited quantities first...
I will post pics and details when it is ready - aiming before end of this month...
Click to expand...
Looking forward to it. If my Ronin arrives before your mount is ready, I think I'll try with the belt clip mount first.
 
One thing to note about one of the power options - using the SIDE HANDLE with a REDVOLT.
You will need to kill the motors (there is an option for this in the smart-phone app to allow for lens change, etc - without having to power down the system) and slide the camera all the way to its left (SSD side), so you can actually open the SIDE HANDLE's battery door wide enough to replace the REDVOLT inside.
Given that the REDVOLT only lasts about 20 min on average - this is something you need to account for when shooting on a tight schedule.
V-Lock or LiPo is the way to go. You need about an hour of run time before you have to change the battery - and when you do need to change it - you want just a simple battery swap without having to rebalance the camera.
Having said that - it doesn't take that long (I can now swap the REDVOLT in under a minute), as you only adjusting the side balance and the other two axis should be unaffected.
What will also help is to have the metric scale on the horizontal bars bellow the camera (which is absent on my beta, but will be included on the final shipping Ronins as you can see on the DJI website) - just make sure to note the actual camera position, so you can quickly slide it back in its place...

Something to keep in mind for those wanting to rely on the SIDE HANDLE + REDVOLT combo as their power solution...

:sifone: Peter
 
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